On this hopefully-interesting episode of What the Trans?! Flint, Alyx and Ashleigh get into the gory details of:
- Villain of the year 2024 Wes Streeting continues his hot streak by expressing sympathy for the families involved with the Bayswater group.
- A Women & Equalities Committee hearing where two scientists exposed the Cass Screwjob as ideologically motivated.
- A lesson on why you should never trust a single word the Telegraph says.
- Several surprisingly positive news stories. (I know, right?! We didn’t think that was possible either!)
- Our fortnightly foray into the field of failure, with Loser’s Corner.
- Flint interviews Vera Drew, the creative mind behind movie The People’s Joker, which is soon to be released in the UK.
Ashleigh’s Other Podcast: A life on the progressive side | MS Society
Action Alley
Petition: Lift restrictions on prescribing puberty blockers to trans children. – Petitions
References:
Wes Streeting & Bayswater
New bid to ban hormones for under 18’s
https://archive.is/6rwed (Archive copy of Extend child puberty blocker ban to sex change hormones, Wes Streeting told)
Campaigner launches bid to ban cross-sex hormones for under-18s – BBC News
Women & Equalities Committee hearing
Puberty Blocker ban: “Risk NHSE will violate human rights” – TransAdvocacy and Complaints Collective
https://archive.ph/5ndXX ← Hannah Barnes article for the New Statesman “Are politicians trying to undermine the Cass review?”
“Watchdog” tells NHS to ‘stop conflating sex and gender’ (except it didn’t)
Misleading Telegraph article (archive copy)
Fife Nurse (News in brief, but you bet your ass we’ll come back to this)
Fife nurse who objected to transgender doctor in changing room admits ‘harassment’ | UK News
Update on Nottingham
Welsh puberty blocker ban
Welsh puberty blocker ban unlawful – Plaid MS
US Judge does something good
Judge blocks transfers of 3 transgender inmates to men’s prison
Judge Blocks Trump Effort to Move Trans Women to Men’s Prisons – The New York Times
Loser’s Corner
[2024] UKUT 426 (AAC) Appeal No. UA-2022-001750-V
The People’s Joker
https://www.thepeoplesjoker.com
Trans Joy
Juno Dawson Joins ‘Doctor Who’ Writers Room
Transcript
[intro music]Ashleigh: Hello everyone, one and all, and welcome to What The Trans?!
Alyx & Flint: What The Trans?!
Ashleigh: Yep, it’s us, we are here, how are we doing you two?
Flint: Good, we’re grooving, we’re vibing, we’re moving. Well, we’re getting there. Actually, you know what I’ve done recently? I’ve started to crochet. I’ve actually picked up crochet and I love it. I cycle through crafts a lot and every so often I find one and I stick with it for a while. And I did not realise that crochet was essentially just “make knots out of things” [laughs] and as someone that loves to sit with a tangle toy, oh buddy we’re off to the fucking races. [laughs]
Alyx: Aw, that is brilliant.
Flint: So I am so into it immediately. My friend showed it to me and I was like “oh this is a winner”. And I’ve also got a project already. I want to make a balaclava with a clown nose and horns and a little clown ruffle for a festival that I’m going to be wearing in mid-May. [laughs] So I’m going to try and use something lightweight.
Ashleigh: You’ve got time.
Flint: I’ve got time. But yeah, I’m very excited, that’s what I’ve been doing recently, I’ve just been playing with yarn, like a kitten.
Ashleigh: Nothing wrong with that.
Alyx: When I was doing the Scouts back in the day, I was always terrible at remembering all the knots, like overhand and the reef knot. I think at some point I think one of the Scouts just decided “oh yeah, here’s the hangman’s noose” and I was like “..okay”. I was a bit confused by that.
Ashleigh: Interesting that you would choose to show us that but thank you. Question Mark?
Alyx: There’s a lot of interesting things whenever I went to those ones, I will admit. But I was never good at remembering any of it, so if I ever tried crochet I have a feeling it would just be a miserable experience for myself.
Ashleigh: So funnily enough, Nadia’s recently taken up knitting.
Flint: Ah!
Ashleigh: Which is not a million miles away from crochet. So obviously it remains to be seen, let’s say the quality of the produced items. Because obviously when you’re first starting, things end up quite a bit smaller because you’ve not left enough air in it, it ends up being just too tight. So you end up making a scarf that looks more like one of those little finger traps that sticks your two fingers together.
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: So yeah, I think, nothing wrong with that. There’s something good about knowing how to make stuff. And it is satisfying to make stuff.
Flint: Yeah, yeah.
Alyx: Yeah exactly.
Ashleigh: Be that food, clothing, or…
Flint: Why food? How does one knit or crochet food, Ashleigh?
Ashleigh: Well I was just in the sense of making.
Flint: Oh right, okay okay okay. I was really wrapped in a riddle there for a second. [laughs]
Ashleigh: Although I’m sure I’ve seen a video of somebody knitting with spaghetti.
Flint: Possibly. Possibly.
Alyx: I think I’ve seen, on a bake off, some people doing knots with bread or something as part of a Great British Bake Off thing. It just looks so delicious afterwards.
Ashleigh: I’ve been known to do pleated bread. But I can’t really make bread anymore because it’s got gluten in it, and gluten free bread is just fucking rubbish. You can’t do fancy things with it. The dough is just not correct.
Flint; What about youse?
Ashleigh: I am all right. And I got up to a thing… Well I’m just going to talk about it now because it’s my podcast and I get to decide to do that. So back in November I did some filming with the MS Society and it was for recording a series of three podcasts about MS and my experience of it, because they’re throwing a bit of a highlight onto the type of progressive MS that I am lucky enough to have. So yeah, there are three episodes of this. There’s one where I talk to somebody else with my flavour of MS. There’s one where I talk to my old physiotherapist Helen, who is really cool. And there’s one where I talk to our old chum, friend of the podcast Dr. Cora Sargent.
Alyx: Aw, Cora’s amazing.
Flint: Oh nice.
Ashleigh: Yeah yeah, she’s great. And she also has MS. Her episode’s kind of my favourite of the three because we’re talking about intersectionality and about navigating queer spaces as a disabled person, about navigating mainstream disabled spaces as a queer person. So there’s a whole load of crossover there. And it’s really cool. It’s very interesting. We’ll include a link for it in the episode description, because I’m the one that puts the episode descriptions together so I will make sure that that’s in there. But yeah. I would recommend. Obviously. Of course I would recommend it.
Alyx: And of course it’s got Ashleigh in it so of course it’s going to be brilliant.
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: Well… the MS Society were very kind to me about it so that was nice.
[laughter]Flint: So humble.
Ashleigh: But yeah, we’re very happy with it. Although the day I did it, and I think I mentioned this, because we ended up recording an episode the day I’d recorded that. So I spent the entire day doing podcasts. But I was fucking exhausted and I even had for the first time in months if not years an actual cup of coffee.
Flint: Wow.
Ashleigh: Yeah, to power me through the day. I do not consume caffeine, it’s a bad idea when I do. But sometimes I just do the calculation, make the sacrifice. It kept me up for the day but then that night I crashed out for 11 hours. So, yeah, fun times. But yeah, check it out, check out the podcast. It was good to make. And is, hopefully, fingers crossed, quite interesting.
Flint: What about you Alyx? What have you been up to?
Alyx: Yes, I’d say it’s been fairly busy. I think I’ve had quite a busy week and I suppose a lot of it has been interesting. I’ve got some new video games recently. I’ve got the new games console, yes. So I’ve been recently playing the new Dragon Age game that we recently awarded.
Flint: Oh nice. I’ve heard a lot of good stuff about that.
Alyx: I bought it over the weekend and I’ve just been playing hours of it. But I’ve just had a problem this week, because I’ve sort of been in endless meetings, so I’ve only got, like an hour and a half after all these meetings in a day to then play video games. So whenever I’m doing Dragon Age it’s like I have to put in a good two, three hour session to do one of the main quest stories. So I’ve got this game agonisingly sitting on my console waiting to be played but…
Ashleigh: Taunting you.
Alyx: …wanting me, and I’ve been wanting it. And it’s been… it’s been an agony. [laughs]
Ashleigh: Well hopefully next week we’ll be a little bit less… a little bit more of a chill week.
Alyx: Exactly, and I can see that the woke mob has affected video game tastes.
Ashleigh: That sounds great, yeah. I fucking love it. I love it when the woke mob makes video games. Those are the best ones.
Flint: They really are. The alphabet mafia, they get it right so frequently.
Ashleigh: Oh for sure.
Alyx: Yeah, my character’s non-binary. It’s perfect.
Ashleigh: Yeah. So before we get fully started we shall return to, and take a slightly swift walk through, that wonderful part of town: Action Alley.
[Action Alley music]Alyx: Yes indeed. There’s quite a lot in Action Alley today, so to start off with, Sophie Molly has started a petition to lift the restrictions on prescribing puberty blockers to trans children, arguing that it breaches Article Eight of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. And we’ll provide a link to it if you wish to sign it below. This is only available for UK residents, so sorry everyone else. But if you know someone from the UK you can nudge it towards them.
Ashleigh: Yeah yeah, just send it their way. We mention this every time, or at least we have done so far anyway, the See Us Hear Us campaign, where they’re trying to get as many trans people as possible in front of their MP to talk to them. You know, clog up their office inbox, phone them, send a flurry of emails.
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: Just do that. Try and talk to your MP basically. I’ve been trying to get hold of mine, but she’s about as present in her constituency office as she is in Parliament, which is not at all.
Flint: But where is she? [laughs]
Ashleigh: I haven’t even– you know when you email in you get an automated response?
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: …from something. Haven’t even had that. No automated response. So…
Alyx: Blimey.
Flint: There is also, the Trans History Week campaign still has openings for writing, I believe. So we mentioned that in the last episode. We’re mentioning it again. Go get at it if you want it. Trans history: it’s real. It works. It’s cool. Let’s do more of it, make more of it, learn more of it. Yay. [laughs]
Alyx: Yes.
Ashleigh: Woot.
Alyx: Woo! And on that note of trans history and trying to make sure you get creative stuff out there, we’re also gonna link below a really cool explainer and call to action from the Transfeminine Review on preserving queer media and ensuring that the fascists don’t try to be evil and do their usual shit of silencing and…
Ashleigh: Destroying everything.
Alyx: Destroying evidence. Much like we’ve seen with the CDC in America recently and all that sort of horrid like “what the fuck?”.
Ashleigh: So that article for the Transfeminine Review, I’ve read it, it is very lengthy. You’re not going to get through it all in one sitting unless you’re sitting there self-flagellating or something. So take your time going through that. But right at the end there’s a very helpful bullet-pointed list of “here’s a bunch of stuff you can do if you are outside of the US” because Transfeminine Review are based in the US of course. So if you’re outside the US, here’s some actions that you can take. And it’s about saving things, making sure you’ve got a copy of it on your hard drive, on your computer itself rather than saving it to a cloud, which could easily be deleted by capitalists, that sort of thing. So yes, there’s some concrete actions that you can take to help preserve… I was going to say queer history, but it’s the queer present, because eventually it will be history and we need to hold onto it.
Flint: Yeah.
Alyx: Indeed. I think I’ve got some fun stuff on our own bits, but we can’t talk about it yet. But…
Ashleigh: Indeed.
Alyx: Yeah. Anyway we can’t talk about it. But yeah, it’s some very important information from the Transfeminine Review who’s done some cool stuff.
Ashleigh: Yes, very good. And honestly would recommend following them on Bluesky or whatever, if you haven’t done so already. Because it’s not just relevant for transfeminine people.
Flint: Yep.
Ashleigh: However, that’s our little jaunt through Action Alley. And now let’s go to the news.
[sound effect: disappointed crowd]Ashleigh: Now… Yes. We have a slightly interesting format point this time, in that we’ve got some stories that are not very good. But we also have some stories that are actually kind of good. They’re pretty good.
Flint: Yeah. There’s like a little traffic light system going on here, just it’s in reverse. We’ve got the red, then the amber, then the green.
[laughter]Ashleigh: Yes, quite. Although Amber’s doing the editing. I’m kidding. You’re the green so… And shit, my jumper’s at least partly red.
Flint: Fuck! It’s all coming together.
[laughter]Ashleigh: So it’s all over the place, basically. But all of the bad ones are right at the start and then towards the end, as we go towards the meat and everything, that’s where you’ll find there’s slightly more cheerful stuff. Because we want to leave you something good to go out with rather than just leaving you intensely depressed, which is what we do most of the rest of the time.
Flint: Yeah. [laughs]
Ashleigh: So let’s get straight into it. And honestly, some of these, they don’t make you depressed so much as make you angry. They certainly make me angry. And on that, we’re going to start as we mean to go on by bitching about Wes Streeting. It’s emerged this week thanks to Queer AF that Streeting has met with some parents from the Bayswater Support Group. Now we’ve talked about Bayswater before, they’re an anti-trans, pro-conversion therapy group that the Bureau of Investigative Journalism wrote two articles about in July of last year. In an interview, Streeting said he had expressed his sympathy for the quote “traumatic experiences” that families with young trans people had been through. Not for young people themselves, mind you, just their families. The full quote is:
[silly music]Streeting: People can see in Labour’s manifesto the commitment to an inclusive conversion therapy ban, also unequivocal support for the Cass Review too, which I think is an evidence-based, well researched, well considered report. And if we get those recommendations fully implemented I think it will be transformational actually, for young people and their families who’ve really struggled with these issues, who are stuck on waiting lists, who are struggling to get access to care, and in some cases have often felt cut out of the conversation. I think particularly families having met with Bayswater parents. I think that’s been a– I’d go as far as a traumatic experience for some of those families and that’s really stuck with me. Similarly for trans young people as well, being stuck on waiting lists, not being able to see a mental health professional, you know, not knowing what’s going to happen, you know, this is a status quo that’s not worked for anyone and we’ve got to get this right. It’s so important especially where it concerns children and young people.
Amber: Sorry I find it really difficult to listen to Wes Streeting talk so I put some music underneath to make it easier.
Ashleigh: So in the same interview, which was recorded in the run up to last year’s election, Streeting also said that he felt families felt quote “cut out of the conversation” with regards to their children’s health care. And all of this within moments of committing Labour to a fully trans inclusive ban on conversion therapy. Having said that, this Labour government is clearly not one that particularly cares about the wellbeing of trans youngsters. Because remember how we said that the Bureau had published two deep dives into Bayswater? Yeah? So the month after that expose was published, Bayswater took part in a targeted consultation about an indefinite ban on puberty blockers and we know how that one turned out. Targeted consultation means that they were invited to do this. Someone read up on them and decided that Bayswater were exactly the sort of people that the Department for Health and Social Care wanted to hear from.
Unfortunately I’m going to stick with Bayswater for a moment as Trans Safety Network have recently put out another damning article about them as a member of the Bayswater forum community has leaked a number of posts to them. Once the Queer AF article went up, a forum poster asked “I’m just checking that we don’t actually promote conversion therapy” and another responded “if advising kids to accept biological reality is conversion therapy, I’m all for it”. In another response a user said “no ethical therapist these days would be telling people what to think, it’s listening, exploring, asking questions. But for some trans people even this is too much.” Even though as the Bureau and previous Trans Safety Network pieces have pointed out, these parents are encouraged to confiscate or destroy any gender affirming clothes, flags and other possessions, which I feel is maybe stretching the definition of “listening, exploring and asking questions” just a bit.
Indeed, some parents on the forum were quite definitely bragging about going a lot further than that, like the one who said quote “I mean I did seek out a non-affirming therapist, and I have indeed hidden trans badges and clothes so, I don’t know. They can bite me”. Now I’m not going to belabour the point too much here, but Bayswater are some twisted and abusive human beings who exist solely to spread that abuse to as many trans children as possible. None of which stopped Wes Streeting from meeting with them or saying he sympathised with their “traumatic experiences” when in reality they’re the ones inflicting the trauma. Earlier this week, a group of cross-party LGBTQ+ groups from the Lib Dems, the Greens and the SNP all got together and signed an open letter calling on Wes Streeting to resign, citing his sympathies for the Bayswater parents and support for the Cass Review. So we welcome this letter and we hope that it makes a difference. So what did you make of all of this?
Flint: Quite simply fucking get in the bin please, sir.
Ashleigh: Get in the bin, which will then be thrown into the sea.
Flint: Simple As. I’m so sick of this shit. I’m just so sick of his face, of his words, of his actions. And I know that that’s almost part of the point: get fatigued, drop out from the fight, but I fucking won’t. I will live out of spite if I have to. Bah!
Ashleigh: Yeah.
Flint: I say that, I’m not even a trans kid in this scenario. It’s just, you know where it’s leading. You know that an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us. An attack on children is an attack on our ability to exist as a community through generations. Anyway, fucking resign.
Alyx: Yeah, especially on your point about you’re not a trans kid. You can see how a trans kid would feel seeing this news come out as well, because it would just be, as you said, utterly demoralising.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Like, why? Why are they spending so much time attacking all the youth of, like not even a percent of the population? Get a new obsession, chill the fuck out. Stop going after trans kids. What the hell’s wrong with you? But like, Wes Streeting seems to me, the way he’s acting is like the kind of gay guy who’s pulled the ladder up behind him.
Flint: Oh absolutely 100%. 100%.
Ashleigh: Fucking Bayswater, man. Cannot believe– Well, okay. The moral part of me cannot believe that Streeting met with them and considered them to have, like, valid points and talked about their traumatic experiences, but the cynical part of me absolutely can believe that.
Flint: So this next item reminds us that while we may not know for whom the bell tolls, we definitely know that Keira Bell is determined to take as big a toll as possible on us before it comes for her. Yes, you may have already heard that Wes Streeting is being “threatened” quote unquote with legal action to ban HRT for trans children, specifically under 18s. Although I don’t know if threat is really the right word to use for goading someone into doing something they already look to be salivating over anyway, and egging on perhaps. I don’t know, maybe that egg pun was in bad taste, but then nothing else here really looks appetising either.
So before my dinner revisits me let’s push this into perspective. HRT is only available from 16 years old so, we are focusing on an even smaller group of children than the puberty blocker ban that affected 12 to 18 year olds. Facts as we know them so far is Weasel Streaking was sent to letter by the firm Sinclair’s Law representing Keira Bell and two anonymous parents that, according to the BBC, who have seen the letter, says if Wes doesn’t ban HRT like he did blockers, they would make a challenge for judicial review.
Now I want to make it clear that’s what the BBC has claimed. What The Trans?! has not seen the letter for ourselves. From the courts in the letter that are in the public though it does basically read as “you did wrong by only banning puberty blockers, and we’re giving notice that we’re challenging that legally”. So yeah, it would appear that after coming for the blockers they’re now coming for the hormones themselves. Something very unsurprising, since many of us have been saying to anyone who will listen that they won’t stop with the blockers and they won’t stop with children’s healthcare either. But the appeal for review itself has seemingly yet to be sent in directly, so far that’s all we really have. So here’s some final thoughts just from the limited information we currently have. Now by no means am I assuming that Streety-Boy over here is actually competent or reluctant to be that cruel to us, but I have a feeling, and I’m prepared to eat my hat on this, with incompetence at a sky-high rate at the minute that he will want a stronger case than a single letter of complaint before making such a big move. Mind you, not for lack of want, but because it seems they want to make things permanent, and the best way to do that is to feign compassion and competency while secretly meeting up with pro-conversion therapy parents. You know, standard UK Gov things. So hold on, brace yourselves. How do we feel about this?
Ashleigh: Like as you said, innit? Also the bit about Keira Bell and the bell tolls, very nicely done. Appreciate it.
Flint: Thank you, thank you.
Ashleigh: But yeah, like the fact that it’s just one letter in that sense is a good thing, because it’s unlikely *asterisk* that anything will be done just off the basis of the one letter. Obviously we’ll see, but yeah. We’ve been saying for so long they’re going to come for this next, they’re going to come for this next, and now they are obviously doing that and people still really aren’t listening.
Flint: Yeah it’s at first like, you were essentially talking about this stuff, feeling put in the position of someone on the side of the street with a sandwich board screaming “the end is nigh, the end is nigh”. And people were just kind of milling around because you know, sky’s blue, cars are driving, what are you on about? And now meteors are starting to fall and hit people and hit cars and you’re going “the end is nigh, the end is nigh”. I mean, obviously doomerism is not a good way, I’m paraphrasing it, but metaphorically speaking, and people are still being like “oh I mean I know it’s a bit of hail” and you’re like “what do you mean? What do you mean?” So yeah…
Alyx: Those fucking meteorites. And then there’s also… exactly. It’s sort of– and then when you saw the NHS infiltration of gender criticals and such, every time I’ve spoken to inside sources, like, I’m sounding like a conspiracy theorist here. I’ve got the board behind me, and you feel like it and you feel like people look at you like that. But the infiltration and conspiracy is just so real and you’re just trying to get it out there, but people are “ah, it’s not that bad” when you know it is.
Ashleigh: Yeah exactly. And it’s so frustrating, they’re making us sound like conspiracy theorists. And they’re the ones that assume that there’s a conspiracy of trans people to capture all the organisations.
Flint: The projection of it all, it’s so much.
Ashleigh: I know. It’s the biggest projection I’ve ever seen. It’s in Cinemascope with Dolby Surround.
Flint: Yeah, it’s bigger than the LA Sphere man. Like this is ridiculous.
Ashleigh: Obviously more on this as it develops, which is kind of the catchphrase of this podcast. But yeah, okay what else do we have?
Alyx: So yeah, speaking of some more interesting news: on January 22nd the Women and Equalities Committee held a session on puberty blockers at which three doctors gave oral evidence, and I think it’s safe to say the session did not go the way people like session participant Rosie Duffield would have wanted. The three doctors were bioethics professor Simona Giordano, who is a member of the WPATH ethics committee, former Tavistock clinical lead Dr Gary Butler of Child & Adolescent Health, and endocrinologist Professor Ashley Grossman. Grossman seemed a little out of place compared to Giordano and Butler, both of whom woke up that morning and decided to drop some truth bombs. For example, when asked about puberty blockers affecting the brain, which is a core part of the argument against their use, Professor Giordano responded that the scientists who looked into this matter found no difference in cognitive function, executive function or IQ scores of trans young people treated with puberty blockers compared to cisgender cohorts.
As the session went on the aforementioned Rosie Duffield decided that she had to get some of her talking points in, and asked “given that the Tavistock GIDs found that a high percentage of its patients had an emergent same sex orientation, that is, they were likely to grow up gay or lesbian. I have written down that it was 68% of girls and 42% of boys. Are you concerned that puberty blockers are being used to change children from being gay or lesbians to being able to pass as straight as members of the opposite sex? Do you echo concerns of some former GIDs clinicians that they were, in their words, transing the gay away?”. Now she initially addressed this question to Grossman before Sarah Owen, the chairperson, asked that the same question be directed to Butler and Giordano, which is how the committee ended up being told to say that puberty blockers do not have benefits in terms of suspending puberty is like denying that the Earth is spherical. For someone who is distressed by pubertal development, suspending pubertal development is clearly a benefit.
And a little later on we have people who’ve said puberty blockers are not beneficial because they do not have any statistically significant impact on gender dysphoria. That is not what puberty blockers are intended for. They’re not a treatment for gender dysphoria. If you measure the effects or benefits of puberty blockers on the reduction of gender dysphoria, you are clearly not going to find a benefit there. So questions need to be pertinent to have pertinent answers. The whole session was like this: politicians asking some questions, some of which were in a genuine spirit of understanding, and some of which were from Rosie Duffield, and were told in icily polite scientific terms that puberty blockers are good actually. Each claim by the politicians was dismantled by Butler and Giordano, who ultimately ended up demonstrating that the ban is entirely ideological and not rooted in a good treatment or scientific practice. Gender critical writer Hannah Barnes was present, and was so disheartened by what she saw and heard, she wrote a piece for the New Statesman the following day asking “Are politicians trying to undermine the Cass Review?” to try and reduce the credibility of the session as a whole. And it’s nice to see her rattled if nothing else.
Ashleigh: So this is kind of one of the stories that could have gone in the good news section, because it completely didn’t go the way I think certain gender critical members of the Women and Equalities Committee, not naming any names Rosie Duffield, did not go the way that she might have expected it would. And I think this speaks to the gender critical urge that, as far as they’re concerned, as far as they believe, the science is with them. Right? I’m sure some of them are perfectly aware that what they’re doing is absolute bullshit, but some of them are true believers. And they are astonished, and people like Hannah Barnes are in this camp as well, they’re astonished that the science isn’t with them, does not reflect how they understand reality.
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: And I just think it’s nice to occasionally demonstrate “hey, y’all should shut the fuck up”.
Alyx: Oh yeah. I mean unfortunately I only managed to catch a lot of these snippets from Claire Trans Talks, a little Threads and I think a bit of Reactive Ashley’s as well, but it was literally… yeah that pretty much sums it up. It was scientists who were actually competent, completely wrecking the bullshit that was being put out by anti-trans blegh. It was glorious to read.
Ashleigh: It was. Yeah. So to get through and write this story, to get through, I had to read several articles that broke it down, but also I read the entire transcript for this meeting, which was 30 odd pages. Yeah, yeah. So there were some really good choice bits in there, but they were kind of lengthy, even the good bits, even where it’s definitely a scientific smackdown, it still took them a paragraph to do it. So I put some other shorter ones in. Because when you’re talking about something that’s backed up by science you have to express yourself very precisely, and that usually means taking a bit of a run up. But yes, I had fun writing that one. It was good to just do the research and say “ha ha! Fuck it! Fuck you, get wrecked”.
[laughter]Alyx: Speaking of people who don’t know anything about science…
Ashleigh: It’s time to do some media analysis.
[Media analysis string quartet]Ashleigh: Yeah, it’s this again. You always pay attention to these parts. It’s something I’ve always appreciated about you. This time we’re looking at a Telegrift article published on January 28th, and the headline blares “Stop conflating sex and gender, NHS told by watchdog”. Oh dear that sounds quite serious, doesn’t it? We’d best keep reading. “Major concerns about accuracy of survey that helps decide policy at UK’s biggest employer”. Which is amazing, I’m surprised the Telegraph have concerns about the accuracy of anything given their output. In fact let’s just pop that to one side for now, we’ll come back to it later.
So this article makes a big deal about how a watchdog [sound effects: a watch ticking & a dog barking] has told the NHS to do something and they have to do it and it’s really serious you guys because the watchdog [dog barking] said to do it, it’s really important, trust me bro. But if you’ve been listening to us for a while you can probably guess what’s coming. The article refers to a complaint and says the complaint by the Sex Equality and Equity Network for NHS Employees (SEEN in Health) said it had been inundated with concerns from employees, so not a watchdog then. Not even slightly. [dog whimpering].
SEE Networks are just the new way to say gang of TERFs. Apparently this not-a-watchdog was inundated, was it? Given a TERF rally is doing well if they get 12 people, I think their version of inundated might be a fairly low bar. Now this is all to do with a survey that’s sent out regularly to NHS staff and the SEEN lot were complaining about the specific wording of certain questions in the survey, insisting that the word gender has no legal basis and they should stop using it and should instead ask for someone’s legal sex.
And towards the end of the article we get a quote from someone representing what’s described as a human rights group, but it isn’t. It’s Sex Matters, the TERF group who were permitted to intervene in the supreme court case we talked about with Reactive Ashley back in Episode 120. Calling them a human rights group is like calling Willy Wonka “really good with children”. It’s only true if the definition is stretched to be, you know, roughly the size of Australia. SEEN Networks: you gotta watch out for them, they’re not watchdogs. But so many Telegraph/Mail/Times articles will say, this group has demanded this change, and will call them a watchdog when they’re not. Or will say that they’re an authority when they’re not. This is an employee led network basically. It’s like the LGBT Group or whatever.
Alyx: To me it sounds like it’s just saying “fascist group wants information on who’s a trans person in the NHS”.
Ashleigh: Also that.
Flint: Exactly. Exactly. It feels like it’s fishing for information, realistically. It’s to whip up fear. You know, first they whipped up a load of fear about trans women being on women’s wards, now they’re going to whip up fear about trans people working in health. Because of course the less trans people working in health the easier it is to get away with transphobia.
Alyx: And also another thing of preventing trans people from being in a role in a hospital. It’s also just preventing trans people from existing in society itself, because if they’re not able to be in the NHS, they’ll just continue to harass trans people out of any profession whatsoever and prevent trans people from just existing in anything.
Ashleigh: Yeah. I mean that’s the goal isn’t it?
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: It’s obviously the goal of every SEEN Network. Although, speaking of people with objections to trans people because of transphobia…
Flint: Yeah, it’s another one, but we’re just going to touch on it briefly. This story has been all over the place over the last few days, so it’s possible you’re already familiar with it. It concerns one Sandie Peggie, a nurse in Kirkcaldy in Scotland. She was suspended from work at Victoria Hospital in January last year because she objected to sharing a changing room with a trans woman, physician Dr Beth Upton, on Christmas Eve 2023. The tribunal is ongoing so we’re going to have to come back to this one once it delivers its judgment. But in essence Peggie admitted to being guilty of harassment under the Victoria Hospital policy, but also claims to not have a problem with Dr Upton specifically.
Her issue is apparently with NHS policies, although given she fought and won a separate case allowing her to refer to Dr Upton exclusively by male pronouns and she also claims to be a fan of Donald Trump, I’m really not sure I believe her. She’s also quoted as saying “my daughter’s gay, I’ve got no homophobic views” which is just a reuse of the classic “I’m not racist because I work with people of colour”. So of course more updates on this once the case concludes.
Ashleigh: So this was all over the place wasn’t it?
Flint: Mm-hmm. It seemed that every article that I saw about this did not want to really focus on the fact that she was admitting to harassing a colleague in the workplace. They all wanted to skirt around that if they even mentioned it at all. Wait a second, you really should focus on this. This is a really important part of it.
Alyx: No exactly. Yeah especially in the fact that making this case as public as it is, naming the trans person involved, opening them up to this gigantic abuse and making a conscious decision to do so, and making it so public is so clearly to me in itself evidence that she’s harassing and abusing.
Ashleigh: Yeah. She’s admitted to harassment. As in yes by the hospital’s code of conduct which has a definition of harassment. She is doing that and has admitted it so fingers crossed that does not go well for her when the tribunal renders its judgment. So this, obviously, when we were writing this, this reminded us of the case of the Darlington nurses.
Flint: Yeah. Yeah yeah. No definitely, and it’s weird seeing them tee up like the next bowling pins, do you know what I mean? Seeing this whole fight that we’ve already seen recycled in some areas get recycled in other areas.
Ashleigh: Yeah. And now we’re on to the part of the show where the news is actually good.
Flint: Hey!
Alyx: Hey! So it’ll lift the spirits at least.
Ashleigh: I mean it’s about time we did something like that isn’t it?
Alyx: This is just a quick update to something we’ve covered before. Remember Jubilee Park Medical Practice in Nottingham? The ones who stopped prescribing HRT for their trans patients for no particular reason. Well there’s been a development. Apparently the Integrated Care Board responsible for Jubilee Park have written them a letter telling them in no uncertain terms they are not to withdraw this care. So far we’ll have to see whether they actually comply or not. Also the ICB has said alternative arrangements will be made in the future, should they be required. Which, okay sure, let’s see shall we?
This all comes from an FOI request sent by none other than Abigail Thorn, who shared these details on Bluesky. She also said that quote “despite claiming they can’t afford to care for trans patients, JPMP never requested additional funds. In fact they didn’t discuss this move at all with the ICB prior to making it”.
Ashleigh: Hmm, pretty suspicious I think.
Alyx: There’s some really interesting revelations about this GP, because they did this and just fucked up and keep on doubling down. And I know Samathy said that they were just getting gung ho on the recent action of not doing anything above their spec, but this feels a lot worse than just going gung ho on that particular part of the action.
Flint: Yeah. I think they expected this to fly a lot further under the radar than it did, and now they’re having to sit pretty close to the consequences of their actions. Because they don’t have the, I don’t wanna say support, but I think they didn’t expect this kind of amount of whoa, what on earth, what are you doing, questioning, pressing. And fool for them.
Alyx: The more we put their feet to the flames the better.
Flint: I mean if you’re doing shit like this, yeah. If you’re denying people care that they absolutely fucking deserve and they absolutely fucking need and is not within your rights or remits to deny them that care, absolutely. Absolutely. Because what you’re doing is you’re holding so many other people’s feet to the flames instead. And yeah, that’s not on.
Ashleigh: Yeah, agreed. And it affected people who it wasn’t like, they had a new prescription, it was people that had had a prescription in place for some time that was then just stopped. Which is not healthy, right? When that happens, suddenly your body is expecting all of these chemicals that it is suddenly not receiving, it has some bad health implications. Bad vibes, as they might say in California.
Flint: Yeah. It’s more than just the mental health impact, which is in of itself a horrendous one. It’s like physically the body is put into a position of duress and danger when experiencing that kind of, like biomechanical fuckery.
Ashleigh: Yeah. So skipping slightly over the border. Forgive us for being really specific for a moment, but there’s at least one member of the Welsh Parliament who thinks that the puberty blocker ban was unlawful. Adam Price, who is in fact a former leader of Plaid Cymru, told BBC Wales that “I think it is clear that the government have acted unlawfully. They need to set out with some urgency how they intend to rectify this mistake, and most importantly engage meaningfully with this group of children and young people whose rights to be respected and whose voices should be heard”. Which, yeah, cool. Based.
When he was asked if he fully opposed the ban, Price said it was not for him to give a view on a clinical question, the question here is whether the proper legal process was followed and whether the rights of those children and young people were fully respected, and whether their voices were heard. Rocio Cifuentes, who is the Children’s Commissioner for Wales, said that although this only affected a small group of young people quote “these children still deserve to have their rights protected. It is difficult to see how their individual rights have been considered, let alone given due regard through this process”. So certain members of the Welsh parliament and government are kicking ass, which is great to see.
Flint: Yeah. Fuck yeah. It needs to happen.
Alyx: Keep having the fight on the puberty blocker ban it’s… There’s a possibility, there’s more to come from this there’s stuff to keep an eye out for.
Ashleigh: Yeah, for sure. Like it’s not going to stop here.
Alyx: Because they just did not consult with other LGBT members in Wales as well, which to be fair they mentioned that in the article, it shows how blatantly crap this whole puberty blocker ban is in its legitimacy.
Ashleigh: Yeah, and it’s clearly on shaky ground because, certainly morally I think we’ve made that argument many times. But I think other people recognising that and specifically other cis people who are quite highly placed in government in one way or another. I think those people speaking out can only be helpful for us.
Flint: Yeah, yeah. Because this isn’t just a situation where it is morally repugnant. I mean it is of course, but the facts are that it’s also not following proper process. It’s also bad policy. And regardless of what anyone’s thoughts or opinions would be towards trans people, you should aim for policy to be good and strong and robust. And this shit is not. And I would argue that any law that you’re going to try and bring in that aims to do this kind of thing to any community is going to be bad policy, because it’s going to require you to break quite a few basic core parts of how good policy is drafted, it flies in the face of, you know, certain ethical considerations. It flies in the face of a lot of things that you should have to consider. And it’s just… [sighs] yeah.
Ashleigh: Okay so now to move slightly further away from Wales to a little place just across the pond called New York.
[music: Star Spangled Banner]Flint: Yeah, speaking of bad policy.
Alyx: Yes that’s where I come in, to read out the next bit. So you’re maybe very aware of the onslaught of horrendous executive orders with dubious legality currently overwhelming the infrastructure in America and its citizens. But people are fighting back wherever and however they can. So let’s look at some of that. The executive order that denies birthright citizenship has had blocks put against it, firstly by a judge that put a 14 day restraint on it, calling it blatantly unconstitutional. And that timer ran out on the day of recording, which is the 6th of February 2025. Thankfully a second judge has come in clutch and blocked it also, representing some pregnant people who are suing the government for trying to rewrite the 14th Amendment. That’s the one about birthright citizenship.
The second block will last the duration of that legal battle unless overturned on appeal. On February 4th a judge in Washington granted a restraining order to three trans women, blocking Trump’s executive order to move them to men’s prisons after hearing the argument from their attorneys that that would violate their constitutional rights. This is part of a legal case against the executive orders. There are only about 16 trans women being held in women’s prisons. And so these executive orders are incredibly cruel and targeted to specific minorities in the service of a narrative of battling a social danger that’s actually just another moral panic. This comes after another restraining order in late January that was put in place for another woman who transitioned as a teenager years before being taken into custody, and is now under threat of being forcibly detransitioned and moved to a men’s prison with the new executive order.
On top of this, Trans Kids Deserve Better have held a small demo outside the United States embassy in order to protest, well everything happening currently to our trans siblings across the pond. They turned up to make their friendship bracelets and with some signs. The whole thing was very serene and meditative. They then gave some statements in support of American trans people who are going through an extra scary time right now. Me and Flint were able to get there in person and help give coverage to it, so if you want to see those pictures, they’re in a thread on our Bluesky accounts. But it was so good to be there wasn’t it, Flint?
Flint: It really was. It was a really good time. It was a small action, but it was a good one. And there was actually one really, not funny, but weird moment where security came up, and they came up once and they were like “what’s all this then?” And we were like “it’s a peaceful protest” and they went “okay”. And then they came back about five, ten minutes later, going “can you give us some information?” to one of the, again, children that’s protesting. And we thankfully had a legal observer, a wonderful legal observer, Olivia from Trans Legal Clinic.
Alyx: Yes. Trans Legal Clinic. Lawyers of the year.
Flint: Yes exactly. And she was there and she stepped in, and she said “you don’t have to give any of your information over actually”. And then the cops immediately just went “yeah actually you don’t have to give us any information” and just turned around and walked away. It was just like, you really were relying on this child not knowing their rights, which is par for the course. But aside from that it was actually a really lovely time. We had to walk past an encampment that was set up in protest of Israel, in support of Palestinian people. And then where we were protesting there was about, like 20 to 50 meters away, something like that, there was a group of people from I think various countries in Latin America who were protesting against Cuban sanctions that had been put in place by Trump as well. And they had a trans flag flying there, which was quite nice. And it was, yeah it was just creating a little sandwich of radical action against this fuckery, which was quite nice.
Alyx: Yeah the funny thing about that trans flag was, I arrived a little later after Flint. And I walked in a different direction to where Flint arrived, and there was, I saw two protests. Well I saw two protests, and the first one I saw was of the one you mentioned. But I was like “hang on this doesn’t feel like this is the same. I think I’m getting my–”
Flint: “I don’t recognise these pride flags”.
Alyx: [laughs] Yes, like “wait which one am I going to? I think I’m getting my…”. But that was a funny bit of confusion that arose but…
Ashleigh: Getting your liberation movement crossed.
[laughter]Flint: Yeah. Especially when we were doing such a quiet, simple one as well. It makes sense that you’d expect– like “I’m walking towards a protest”, you expect to hear noise, and instead it was just, you know, a group of people making friendship bracelets and being supportive. Which is nice.
Alyx: Definitely. Because when I’m heading towards a protest my first thing to do is, once I arrive at the place and I need to find specifically where they are, you look for the flags. But then when someone else is carrying a pride flag around…
Ashleigh: Yeah. It can get a bit confusing. There’s one thing I just wanted to say here, there was a quote, I think it was on Threads, that has been rattling around in my head all week, and it’s specifically about the flurry of executive orders.
Flint: Yes.
Ashleigh: And it’s Jennifer Walter. And it’s “the flood of 200 plus executive orders in Trump’s first days exemplifies Naomi Klein’s shock doctrine”, which is a good book by the way.
Flint: Yes. Absolutely.
Ashleigh: “…using chaos and crisis to push through radical changes while people are too disorientated to effectively resist. This isn’t just politics as usual, it’s a strategic exploitation of cognitive limits”. Which, yeah it is, right? And so that’s why it’s all been done through just being blasted through by executive order. So many of them, too many of them to be effectively resisted. It’s because they know that’s the effect that it will have on the people who are trying to resist it.
Flint: And they know that they’re making big swings towards things that, again, dubious legality. There’s stuff that is directly against the Constitution here. It’s not about them necessarily believing that all of that is completely constitutional. It’s about forcing that conversation, forcing that process upon the system. And seeing what can shake out in the meantime. And dragging it down, dragging it down in the meantime. It means that you can ramp up ICE raids, you can take people’s passports at the border. I’m gonna get too angry.
But yes, fuck that shit. And I’m glad that there’s been judges and people like– This also is not all of it. This was a bit of a late addition into the script, and so I didn’t get all of the details of the judges that I wanted. And there was also more that I somewhat knew of, but I don’t have the full facts on them, so I don’t want to speak on them. But there’s been lots of organising that’s been happening, where possible. All of the media is going to be so focused on what’s getting through. It’s nice to take a moment to go “hold up, hold up. I know you’ll have heard about these things. Let’s follow through and see how many of them actually go anywhere”.
Ashleigh: There’s quite a lot of these things that are ending up not being something that’s gotten through and has succeeded, but ending up, well, a loser.
Flint: A little bit of a loser, maybe. Shall we? Is it time? Is it time? It may be time. [laughs]
Alyx: It’s time for…
[sample: Loser’s Corner]Flint: Loser’s Corner. This week’s dose of clarity was Discord submitted. So thank you, groovy people of the internet. In particular, Narremor, who signposted us to this recent legal case and appeal with more than meets the eye. As listeners may know, legal documents are often full with nuggets of shade and sometimes even outright roast in very posh vernacular. So get ready for some spicy legalese, my fellow Earthlings. A teacher, who we only know through the initials DMR, appealed against a decision by DBS. For anyone that doesn’t know, that’s the Disclosure and Barring Service. If you’re going to work around children or vulnerable people, you need to get a DBS check to be able to do so. Even if you’re just a cleaner, you will need one. It’s that crucial.
Anyway, DBS barred him from working with children after making homophobic, transphobic and anti-abortion comments to the children in his classroom, including where there were trans people present. Specifically, he said “anyone who thinks there’s more than two genders needs psychological help, amongst other things”. Which I’m not going to bear repeating. The former teacher was allowed to appeal this decision not on the merit of his argument. Which, I shit you not. In not so many words “my opinions are facts, I was teaching differences of opinion and I didn’t break criminal law so what gives?” [laughs]
But it was actually allowed because the court found an interesting legal question in the case. No really, here’s a quote. “I wasn’t persuaded that either of DMR’s grounds of appeal was arguable with a realistic prospect of success. But I nonetheless granted permission because I was persuaded that this case raised an important question of law”. The question in question is long-winded legalese but nonetheless, actually kind of important. So we’re going to guide you through that just a little bit, which I find is easiest to do when we treat legal jargon like the cryptic logic based crossword puzzles with fancy wigs that they really are.
So the question was two parts that I have paraphrased here. Firstly, to what extent can the sharing by an individual of their personal beliefs on controversial topics be considered relevant conduct for the purposes of the 2006 Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act, which is the Act that’s used to decide if someone should be barred. And part two, to what extent barring a person on the basis of their having shared personally held views may be proportionate. Translation, what is the limit on someone being a twat versus a fireable twat because their takes are that bad? And by that bad we mean in contradiction with the Equalities Act, right? Okay, cool.
So the reason this becomes a central question is because, A, this case was based entirely on comments made during conversations, not specific actions that they had to decide if they were discriminatory or not. And B, neither BDS nor DMR disputed that he had made these comments towards children. These are both things that are apparently a little bit irregular in cases of this kind. So right, now that all this setup has been well and truly set up, whatever, we’ll get into the real tea. The court obviously dismissed this appeal, very satisfyingly, concluding that they were opinions, not facts, and inappropriate ones to share at that.
I’ll give you this bit of the judgment itself, it’s quite juicy. “We are not persuaded that when DMR shared his views on these matters, he did so with a pedagogical intent. He did not introduce these views with the context of a considered discussion, highlighting to the students the range of views on the topics, rather he owned the views he articulated to the class and insisted that they were not opinion, but fact. He didn’t appear to appreciate the irony of his saying that he wanted to encourage the students to become resilient learners by exposing them to views with which they may not agree, while displaying his own inability to understand that his views are part of a multiplicity of views that may legitimately be held.”
Now, this is all well and good, but why is it ended up here when there are so many bigger news stories? Well, because I think it’s actually a pretty interesting bit of precedent to have set. If a teacher starts mouthing off transphobia and anti-abortion stuff, they don’t have to back that up with discriminatory action towards people for it to be considered harmful to the classroom and in conflict with their responsibilities to appropriate conduct. And that’s pretty decent, actually. Also, it’s not like anything else happened this week involving any big legal loss, eh? I don’t know, like, there may be some washed-up Irish writer somewhere who was Substacked down a staircase made of his own defamatory statements, but maybe we’ll look at that mess when he makes it down to the bottom instead of mid-flight.
Ashleigh: So I did not hear about this case.
Flint: Mmm. Yeah, it’s a small one.
Ashleigh: It is, yeah. But how surprised are you that somebody who’s expressing these views is doing so on the basis that he’s convinced that they’re fact, not opinion? It goes back to what we were saying before about being so convinced that they have the facts when they’re not, right? Oh, well, people will side with me because I’m just obviously right, which is only the case if you’re a podcaster, of course. [laughs]
Alyx: This seems like ripe for that subreddit r/confidently incorrect.
Flint: Yes. A little bit. A little bit, yeah. It’s that he did not appreciate the irony, for me. That [chef’s kiss]. And, not on the basis of them actually being succeedable. It’s like, oh, fucking get it. So the thing is, because I went through and I read quite a lot of this, the actual thing is that he was asked these questions in the classroom. So he was asked his opinion on these things and he started giving his opinions.
And it’s the fact that he was stating them as fact. And he tried to argue, well, you know, the fact that these kids asked me, I thought the best way was to answer honestly. And they kind of went, “dude, you’re a teacher. You shouldn’t be led by the kids into conversations and stuff you know isn’t appropriate for the classroom. Like, what are you doing?” And I just think it’s quite, it’s– this guy has been working for a long time.
Alyx: Exactly. I think it’s a surprise that this hasn’t been a bigger story. But we have to thank our Discord for pointing this out, I just want to encourage more people to join in on our Discord. And if you see stories like this or anything like that, feel free to join and make sure you link them, because this is an example of something that we wouldn’t have seen. And we’ve been able to put this on the podcast.
Flint: Yeah. Because the thing is, it’s got sort of a couple of tidbits of quite nice, interesting legal– I say nice, interesting. I’m a bit of a nerd when it comes to this kind of stuff sometimes. I find it interesting. The thing with this is that there’s not only some fun bits of quite funny or charismatic writing, there’s that precedent, this interesting legal question that I think is a little bit of a bigger win than we might first be willing to look at. I’m not saying this is a game changer or anything like that. We can’t put that kind of big weight on it. I’m just saying this is a good, nice little win, which maybe we’ll see play out in future, now that this can be referenced back to you.
Ashleigh: Yeah. The echoes will be felt.
Flint: Ripples.
Alyx: Good old ripple.
Ashleigh: That’s the end of the news. We did it.
Flint: Yeah. We did it.
[sound effect: crowd “yay”]Alyx: Party popper sound effects.
[sound effect: party popper]Flint: So I’ve got a question for yous now. What do you know about the People’s Joker?
Ashleigh: I know it is a film. And I know that it is the subject of the following segment. And I think I read, like a brief article about it when the opportunity that came up for us presented itself. And I thought, oh, that sounds interesting. I’ll keep an eye out for that. But other than that, I hadn’t heard of it before the thing that happened happened.
Alyx: A democratically elected jester.
Flint: Well, yeah. Yeah, no, that’s all correct. The People’s Joker is a really small indie, I say small indie. It’s a very… how can I put this? The People’s Joker is really fun and really cool and probably one of my favorite comic book films in a little while actually. I did not think this before I saw it. I then watched it and I went, “oh, fuck, this is so good”. But I got excited about it because the People’s Joker, for those who don’t know, is what started off as sort of a parody film of Joker, right? That one with Joaquin Phoenix. And it’s that plus trans auto fiction plus good bits of comedy, it’s just got a lot in it. It’s very, very good.
And it’s had a bit of a shaky distribution. That’s the thing. By which I mean, there’s been no actual things to stop it. There’s been no lawsuits or anything like that regarding any copyright of any Batman or Joker or anything like that. But nonetheless, it’s been a little bit difficult to get it the kind of worldwide release that you might normally assume when you hear like, oh, a parody film about such a big thing like Joker and Batman. It follows Joker [laughs] as she goes through transition and experiences and things like that. And there’s a lot of really good stuff. And it is out from the 21st of February in the UK, which is very cool and exciting.
I remember hearing about this like a year or two ago, when there was a brief bit of reporting on it, on it trying to get around to places. How it was both sweeping up accolades and critics really enjoying it. But at the same time, it was quite hard to seemingly access. And we’re going to be able to have access to it now soon too. And we also had the brilliant opportunity to have Vera Drew, who is the star and the writer and I believe director come in and speak to me, which was great and cool. And we’ll roll that now.
Flint, Alyx & Ashleigh: Interview, interview, interview, interview, interview, interview, interview, interview, interview, interview, interview, interview, interview.
Flint: I watched the film last night, honestly, I was taken aback by how many blink-and you-miss-it DC references that there are in the People’s Joker. And I was discussing this with my partner, it might actually be the most comic book accurate Batman Universe film that I’ve seen. Like Anarky is referenced, what? So was all of that knowledge just ready and waiting? Or did you do extra research to ensure as many as possible?
Vera: It was a little bit of both. I’ve been reading the comics since I was a child. And my frame of reference for them is very specific, I grew up during the time in which Jason Todd was murdered by Batman fans. So like, I think I was coming at it from this very specific place. There was also, when the idea came, this ensemble of queer friends and comedians that I came up with and the people I knew. The metaphor we’d circle around was making them all like Batman’s rogues gallery, it was fun to go in and revisit a lot of those things and also see, what’s a version of Poison Ivy that we haven’t seen before? Or what’s a version of Mxyzptlk that we haven’t seen before?
I think Anarky specifically was a character that I hadn’t been super familiar with, but just felt so perfect to throw in there. There’s kind of like another movie happening in the background with Anarky and Mr. J and the Riddler. And there’s a weird tech revolution that’s happening behind the Joker’s movie. I think Anarky just seemed like the perfect character to do that. And I loved the opportunity to really overload every frame with a lot of jokes and a lot of references. It felt like a good use of controlled chaos, in a Joker movie, it should kind of MK Ultra you into submission.
[laughter]Flint: Well, on that point, were any jokes or storylines that you really wanted to include, but didn’t get to make the final cut?
Vera: Not really actually. I think the benefit of this being something that took so long to complete, all of our live action stuff, the script was, I’d say only about 80% done in a lot of ways. There was a lot of things that still needed to be threaded together. I kept it very loose. So as we were working on it and coming up with the visuals, we could make these like last minute decisions and stuff. I knew the Lorne Michael’s death sequence, for instance, was something that initially as written, I think he just literally fell down the stairs. And then it was like, okay, but what if he falls down the stairs and then he’s like swallowed by Poison Ivy. And then we did that, and then we rendered out this version of it. It was actually like this mistake in the render where for some reason, when he fell down the stairs, the texture of his clothes just flew off in the 3D model. And my artist, James Moore was like “I didn’t mean for this to happen, but it looks amazing”.
I was like, yes, it needs to stay in. So let’s add him also tripping on a banana peel. So, it just became way more and more: he falls, his clothes get ripped off, he trips on a banana peel, he falls down the stairs, he gets eaten by Poison Ivy. That was just what making the whole movie was like, was just continually putting a hat on a hat on a hat. Yes, exactly. Beating a dead horse until it comes back to life is the name of the game.
I think there were some more horror elements and stuff that I wanted to sort of incorporate a little bit more. I wish we could have circled that a bit, but also I think it’s only because I’ve sat with the movie so long. And I’m now in the process of trying to make horror movies and stuff. Yeah, I’m excited. I really need to get that out of my system next. But yeah, I’m overall super happy with the amount of junk we were able to pile in there in the People’s Joker.
Flint: Yeah. The most popular joke that Joker has, the saddest story bit. When I was watching it, it funnily enough reminded me a little bit of a bit by a comedian called Hannah Gadsby, where she makes the point about the amount of trauma that you have to dig up for people’s entertainment. I was wondering how did you find the balance between honesty, storytelling, and privacy in creating the film?
Vera: I don’t know that I ever found the balance of privacy. I think I was so naive honestly in what I was doing. I didn’t realise how personal the movie was until we started screening it. I started talking about it with people and being “why are you asking me about my mom? Why are you asking me like when I came out?” Oh “because you made this fucking movie”. But I also, with the balance of comedy and trauma and stuff, I think for myself I almost had to erase any distinction between the two.
The whole self-deprecating thing, whether it’s coming from a comedian or a trans person who’s being transphobic about themselves before somebody else is, it all feels like it’s coming from this same place. And I think with Joker’s bit specifically, there was a level of partially… I hadn’t really thought about Nanette until you just mentioned it to be quite honest. But I’m sure that was part of the inspiration. But it was also coming from the world of making stuff with Adult Swim.
One of my favorite movies of all time is American Movie, which is a film just about this filmmaker in the Midwest trying to make a movie. And he’s like an alcoholic; he’s just a disaster making this movie. And as you’re watching it like it’s one of those things that I think like a lot of people have when they watch Adult Swim stuff too, where it’s “are these people in on the joke? Like how much of this– should I feel bad watching this?” I think the experience of making that kind of stuff was why very specifically, making Joker’s kind of whole bit in her routine itself be “let’s open up your darkest trauma and laugh at it”. Because I think that’s just the comedy scene that I came up in.
And I saw also how much of that for me was not necessarily looking at my own shit or telling my own stories. I think, even at the end of the movie her final joke before bursts into a cloud of Smilex, she’s still not telling her own story. She’s making fun of Bruce Wayne. I think there’s this digging that I was doing throughout the whole movie where it’s let’s pick apart everybody else as much as possible until I finally have to have this moment of clarity around my childhood and stuff.
Flint: When it comes to Joker and her transition, I really like tying it in with the origin story point of the vat of chemicals. Very smart. I love that. But it also then turned it into this subversive act of rebellion and also self love. Just very relatable. I was curious, what do you feel is most important in how we frame trans people’s stories and transition, like in media. Because it’s becoming a bigger thing now.
Vera: Yeah, I think for me the only way I see doing it is portraying it as an act of rebellion. I think in the People’s Joker like they’re literally villains, all of the characters. There’s real literalisation of: well queer people are are villainised and pushed to the edges of society. So let’s just make them fucking Batman villains that just felt very on the nose. And I think there was something pretty scary about doing that. And I even remember when I first started screening the movie and it was always a cis person asking this. [laughs] It was always a cis person going “do you feel like it’s responsible to like make a trans villain?” or whatever.
And I’m like “do you feel like it’s responsible to fucking live in a world where we’re called groomers all the time?” I don’t know, it is interesting because there is this level of, transition for me is self care as you said. And it’s me digging towards authenticity, getting to this place where I’m becoming the most me. And the rest of the world somehow sees that as a threat or as a perversion or something. And that’s to me the story of transness right now. I think it’s the only way to tell authentic trans stories.
And I’m looking forward to the stuff I make going forward not necessarily being coming out stories, per se, but I think it’s the way that I see authenticity. It’s the world I live in and I’m a West Coast Hollywood elite transsexual, and even here in Los Angeles I’m misgendered all the time. I get weird looks when I walk into bathrooms and stuff. Like it’s a hellscape out there for us. And I think when you’re circling that truth, that’s actually how you’re able to find authentic queer joy too in trans media, is when you’re not sugarcoating it. You’re actually talking about what our lives are like.
Flint: Well yeah that’s actually the thing that you mentioned there about the sort of not sugarcoating it is one of the things– I love the way that you allow them to be villains. And it made sense like their place in the world versus the stories that you’re building off of. And for me that was best exemplified in the way that you handled Mr J. Because we often put T4T relationships on pedestals, we often don’t speak about abuse in our own community. So I’m curious, how did you navigate depicting an abusive relationship so well with the knowledge that there is this worldwide hunger for these transphobic “evil trans people” narratives?
Vera: It was really about making Mr J a three-dimensional character and not just completely turning him into this one-dimensional toxic trans boy. Because that’s also definitely existed in various queer media in the past. In the recent past. And I think I really almost had to go out of my way to — which is hard, because the guy that that character is based on is a douchebag. He’s not nearly as charming as Mr J is, but I had to start from scratch and go why did I fall in love with that guy, and what were the qualities of somebody like that that that were beautiful and good? When you meet these two characters in the movie, you kind of need to be rooting for them. And it’s cool because now when I watch it, those are my favourite scenes. Those early scenes where they’re falling in love and stuff and I’m “oh that’s so cute”. It’s about to get horrible for both of these people. I think there’s a history of queer art where the straight cis people are the most portrayed as toxic abusers and stuff. And I mean that’s definitely also in the People’s Joker.
But even those characters, I tried to find something that shows, like with Joker’s mom, the way she’s treating her daughter, it’s not coming from a place of malice. She thinks she’s like… it’s coming from a place of love and care. And I think most transphobia from cis people is either just confusion or fear, or they’re just kind of annoyed by us. I think rarely is it coming from this place of pure evil.
And then yeah, I don’t know, T4T is, there’s great things about it on paper. And overall I mean like it’s a relationship dynamic too that I just prior to making this film I’d never seen in a movie before. I just had never seen it. So it was exciting to introduce it, and introduce it not necessarily as this goal we should all achieve. Talking about a relationship, any relationship in a film, I want to watch the change and the catharsis.
So what is fundamentally gonna not work about two people that really, in this case, in the film’s case, really only end up together because they’re both just the most damaged people in that city. Which is what a lot of my early relationships felt like in transition. And I think a lot of us are hurting each other within our own community. It really is kind of coming from this place of the trauma along from our family systems and that seems like an interesting thing of talk about in the film.
Flint: Is there any final message you have for the trans nerds out there who haven’t gotten away to their Gothams yet?
Vera: Do it. I mean, the thing that I’ve had to accept, both about being out and trans, and just making the kind of art I want to make is, I’m going to be afraid and uncomfortable a lot of the time. And I always like to make a point of saying that when I’m asked that kind of question, because I’m just “yeah, it’s just kind of a thing”. And I don’t think playing it safe or staying in Smallville makes you any more comfortable. So dive into that vat of chemicals, kids.
[laughter]Flint: You heard it here first. What’s the TL;DR? Like what kind of vibe is it going for? Anything and everything, info dump away.
Vera: Well we’ll see if this is– because I have two things in development right now and one of them’s this horror movie, it’s called Dead Name and it’s like cosmic horror. The way I’ve described it is, it’s like if Stuart Gordon directed My Girl. It has a real coming of age vibe to it. But it’s not a coming out story. It’s like a going home story, but with goddess worshiping cults and doppelgangers and stuff like that. And then the other thing I’m working on right now is a heist movie that I can’t talk too much about. But it’s another toxic queer romance movie. And there’s horror elements to it. I think whatever I make next will probably be one of those. It just depends on what a bunch of rich cis people are willing to pay for first.
[laughter]Flint: Yeah, realistically.
Ashleigh: So how was that for you? Did you enjoy that?
Flint: It was very cool. It was very cool. I love nerd shit. I love cool trans art. I like comedy. This is very up my street. And it was lovely to speak to Vera. She’s got a lot of really interesting and cool thoughts and there’s so many bits in the film. This interview only touched on a tiny portion of all of the cool things in this film. It’s hard to not sound like a fanboy. But I only became a fanboy after I saw the film, which is once we got the screener link [laughs]. Before that point I was like “oh I know about this thing and that could be really cool”. And now I’m like “oh, this might be one of my favorite comic book films ever”. So yeah, it’s fucking– it’s sick. Go watch it. Go check it out. Because I think it’s very cool and it deserves a lot [laughs]. It’s also, even if you’re “oh I don’t know if like that’s my vibe” or whatever, it got 95% on Rotten Tomatoes. So chances are there’ll be something in it for you [laughs].
Ashleigh: Yeah, it’s probably got something in it that’s recognised as good, as positive. Like some sort of filmmaking craft going on, you know.
Flint: No definitely. There is this kind of very hyper online kind of way– like there are so many bits where you’re watching it and it feels like you’re watching, not a YouTube comedy skit, but the ones where they would have like really good production value, where it’s like people that would have a green screen– it has that kind of vibe to it. But it then also has so much — that sounds like that would be exhausting for an hour and a half. It’s not. Because it isn’t that pace. It’s just that’s clearly some of the access that they’ve had, so it feels very fresh, slightly nicely nostalgic if you’re someone that used to watch things like Epic Rap Battles, or if you used to watch things like I don’t know the Key of Awesome stuff like that. I’m really showing my age right now. [laughs]
Alyx: I’ve seen those as well so I’m now feeling old for you saying it’s old [laughs].
Ashleigh: Oh my sweet summer child.
Alyx: We’re children in this case.
Ashleigh: Well, so the main thing I remember, and we’ll go on to remember is when the option to interview Vera dropped into the inbox and we asked the team “ooh would anybody like to do this?”. And Flint was so excited about doing it.
[laughter]Flint: Yeah. Because it’s something that I just saw pop up a few times on my feed because I really like weird odd films. I really love just a random weirdo with a dream and a camera. And I don’t care if it’s good. I don’t care if it’s bad. I care about the process. I care about how earnestly are you putting your full bussy into this? And okay, full disclosure: my first anniversary with my partner, we went and we watched Neil Breen’s film Cade the Troubled Crossing or whatever, in cinemas, in the Prince Charles cinema in London on release. That’s how much I love bad films, okay? So, when I see something that has this fun janky “we’re doing it ourselves” vibe to it, and then it’s also fucking hilarious. It’s really well written. And it’s also trans as fuck! So fucking trans. That just makes my heart sing. And yeah, I think that it’s great. As someone that loves exactly this kind of oddball, out there project. I knew enough to know that this is not a thing we should sleep on, which is why I was like “yes let’s do it”.
Ashleigh: Let’s do this. Grab it with both hands.
Alyx: Yeah. Usually when I put out these sorts of ideas for interviews or articles, I’m always like “okay, we’ve got to make sure that people don’t feel too burnt out and we don’t give them too much stuff to do”. I saw your eagerness, I was like “this ain’t gonna do shit to any kind of energy, because you’re gonna love it”. If anything it’s just gonna propel.
[laughter]Ashleigh: No that’s good, that’s good.
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: Well I look forward to eventually watching the film. Gonna see if it turns up in the funky indie cinema near where I live, home in Manchester.
Flint: Yes. Actually, just before we move on. This reminds me: I know I just briefly dropped a mention of the Prince Charles cinema in London, which does exactly this. They do monthly screenings of The Room, they’ve done, as I said, the Neil Breen stuff. There is actually a petition right now to save that cinema.
Alyx: Oh I saw that.
Ashleigh: Yes.
Flint: Yes. And I didn’t think to put it in Action Alley, because it’s not trans related. [Action Alley music] But since it’s ended up being relevant now, there is a petition to save the Prince Charles cinema. It’s because basically they’ve been put into a position by their landlords and their parent company, and they have been put in this position where they could be left homeless with only six months notice, should they receive planning permission to redevelop the cinema. Because of the demanded inclusion of a break clause in the new lease that they’re having to renegotiate. So this is a really concerning thing, that means that it puts them in a place of serious precarity. So if you give a shit about weird films, if you give a shit about small cinemas that have been around since… fucking time. I think it was opened in the 60s or something… sign it. Sign it. Go do it. It’s a little bit of talking about art preservation.
Alyx: Yeah.
Ashleigh: Yeah. save a bit of that culture.
Flint: Yeah. And now on with other media. [laughs]
Ashleigh: On with other media. Well although sticking with films.
Flint: Yeah.
Alyx: Yeah.
Ashleigh: This is actually kind of going to be the trans joy segment as well. But we’re going to be talking about some media fun and games. So first up for this bit of trans joy is a film. A new British film. A cast announcement has been made about a new film with a trans actress starring in the leading role as Elizabeth Bellinger, whose name you may recognise because of the very famous legal case she was part of back in 2003, Bellinger versus Bellinger, which centered on marriage equality as she took the UK government to court to have her marriage legally recognised. And before anyone gets worried about unsympathetic authorship of trans stories, the script was written by Bellinger’s OG legal counsel and Lisa McMullin. So spoilers I guess for an integral piece of UK trans history: this case in turn led to the enactment of the Gender Recognition Act of 2004 that allowed people to get gender recognition certificates. And even though Rebecca Root is playing the starring role, her name isn’t even mentioned until like the third paragraph when looking at most of the coverage of this. They all focus on the other cis stars like Emma Thompson and Christopher Eccleston, which is cool and all, but here we thought we’d give a brief swooping dive into some of the work that Rebecca Root has done. She has played trans and cis women, been a big name in TV shows like Boy Meets Girl, where she was the lead. And the first trans lead of a British drama at that. She’s also in the Queen’s Gambit, and even Heartstopper, where she played the principal of the school in the latest season. She’s also been on the radio in the drama 1977 about the famous trans composer Angela Morley. She’s also been in the Doctor Who audio dramas and even on stage in productions like Hamlet. In terms of films though, she actually auditioned for the title role of Lili Elbe in The Danish Girl, which infamously chose to cast Eddie Redmayne instead, and she was given the role of a cisgender nurse. So now finally here is her chance to shine. Congratulations to Rebecca Root. Also, fun fact about the role of the cisgender nurse, which is you’ll blink and you’ll miss it: someone else was also offered that, but decided not to go for it. It was me.
Alyx: What?
Flint: Oh!
Ashleigh: Yeah, so I had a phone call asking if I would go and appear for this part. And I was told what it would consist of, and I was told that I had to schlep all the way to London for it, and thought “no, I’m not doing that. That sounds bollocks. That’s just tokenism, that”.
Flint: Yeah. So they were searching for a trans person to play that role, and then when a trans person went for the trans role they went “nah. But tell you what. Tell you what babes”. Okay. Also…
Ashleigh: Yeah. Fuck the Danish Girl.
Alyx: Yeah. I’m seeing a lot of mentions of Doctor Who here. Which moves us on to the next story as well. I might as well play the Who The Trans?! intro here now, mightn’t we?
Ashleigh: Well we have to, now you’ve said it.
Alyx: Alright then, let’s roll the intro.
[Who The Trans?! Theme: Trans and nonbinary. Who the trans, who the trans, who the trans, who the trans, who the trans. Trans!]Alyx: Speaking of Doctor Who, Juno Dawson, famed trans author of Her Majesty’s Royal Coven, who has also previously written books for Torchwood and Doctor Who, amongst many other works. There’s a whole list. Go check them out and has been announced as a writer for the upcoming season of the space-time spectacular Doctor Who. Being the first openly trans author on the writing team, we can’t wait to see what she comes up with
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: Yeah. So there are two Her Majesty’s Royal Coven books. There’s going to be a third this year I think, which I’m very much looking forward to. Because both of them, Her Majesty’s Royal Coven and the Shadow Cabinet, they’re both really good. So I’m a fan.
Alyx: How does Juno Dawson fill in her time?
Flint: Yeah I think she’s also been writing for quite a long while. So I feel like she’s probably getting now to this bigger stage after grinding for a while, and yeah. It’s really cool, because I mean listen, as much as I’ve been loving a lot of the trans rep in Doctor Who, there are some moments where it does feel really cis written. Just every so often. And I’m not saying – I would rather have something be supportive and written by a cis person than have no fucking rep at all, but that patience for that is very thin until I start going “okay, you’ve done that a couple of times, but when are you actually gonna invite us to the table?”. And that’s where I was getting with Doctor Who. Because you’d had quite a lot of conversation on trans stuff and no trans writers yet. Very glad to see that happening.
Ashleigh: Yes. At long last.
Flint: Yeah. maybe it’ll lead to better written lines than “something a male-presenting Timelord could never understand”, which just made me [shudders].
Alyx: Yeah. Oh, just that episode, that bit. Oh. Because that got a whole load of complaints from the complaints people. I can’t remember the bloody name of the regulator.
Flint: Ofcom.
Alyx: Ofcom. That’s it. But then the BBC just slapped it down.
Flint: Did it actually?
Alyx: Yeah, it got a whole bunch. But the BBC just, it just got completely dismissed and just slapped down.
Flint: As in the line about male-presenting Timelords or just the inclusion of trans people?
Alyx: Just the inclusion of trans people on Doctor Who.
Flint: Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, that’s a dumb battle to try and start.
Alyx: But no, it’s satisfying to see it all slapped down. It was like…
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: Yeah
Alyx: Juno Dawson getting on the team. And because, once someone does it once there’s always opportunities for more as well.
Ashleigh: Yes. Yeah absolutely. Long may it continue, you know.
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: Fine. Took ‘em long enough. But they’re doing it now and that’s great. So.
Flint: And in other trans joy we have Sarah, who found the perfect spinny skirt last week at the charity shop near my home. I’m including this one because someone replied to it saying “this. This is the one. You put this in your podcast. The world needs more spinny skirts”. So yeah, absolutely. I agree. There is also people that have been shortlisted for a FVH Hero Award, which is I think sponsored by the FA, including someone who wrote in: “Emma Williams says our Emily is shortlisted for an awesome award. The only trans kid in the running”. So go Emily. Good on ya.
Alyx: Congratulations.
Ashleigh: Yeah, well done.
Flint: Exactly. Well done.
Alyx: Rooting for you to win that one.
Flint: And then this is from Ray: “I am medically transitioning using hormones right now. Every day I wake up and see myself in the mirror brings me joy. Having dear friends that call me by my name, people accepting me and affirming me. So much joy in my day. Being able to love myself. Being able to also love and experience others’ joy”. And that’s lovely.
Ashleigh: That is wonderful.
Flint: Yeah. Maddie also received a “world’s best mum” mug, which is beautiful. We love to see that. And Haz says “my mum digitised all our baby pictures a while ago, before I came out. When I changed my name legally she went through all the files and changed my name on all of them”. And what a fucking sweet thing. We also have Lance, who says “I’ll be speaking in my first conference this month, about my art practice and trans liberation”. Fuck yeah. That’s big. Hell yeah. And there’s so much more. If you want to look at the thread that we have on Bluesky, there’s some amazing things in there which I can’t include all of it. But yes, there’s so much beautiful things in all of these. And yes.
Alyx: I’ll try to make sure to do one every time just before we record podcasts as well, just so that we can get some of that in.
Flint: Yeah. And just inspire a little bit of niceness.
Alyx: But yeah, I think on that note we can… yeah.
Ashleigh: Alright, that’s… yeah, that’s that, isn’t it? We’re done with trans joy. So you can obviously find all our stuff at our website whatthetrans.com, which is also our Bluesky handle now. You can find us on Bluesky at whatthetrans.com. Obviously we’re on Facebook, we’re on Instagram, although we’re not sure how much longer we’re going to be on Meta products.
Alyx: Constantly under review, isn’t it?
[music: Money by Pink Floyd]Ashleigh: Yeah, there’s an internal conversation taking place, isn’t there? But if you feel like this rambling nonsense is something that you can support, then please do feel free to join us over on Patreon. Last time I said we had 99 Patreons, and so the next person to join gets to be the 100th. And now we have 97 followers.
[laughter]Flint: Oh that’s bad!
Ashleigh: That’s… yeah. Someone’s just fucking with us.
Flint: Listen, January is a really really rough one.
Ashleigh: It is. It is. Oh I’m not making any judgments. I just thought it was funny.
Flint: It’s really funny.
Ashleigh: Anyway. Thanks everyone for listening and… yeah. Toodle pips. See you next time.
Flint: Bye.
Alyx: Bye.
[outro music]Ashleigh: This episode of What The Trans was written and produced by Ashleigh Talbot, Alyx Bedwel and Flint, was edited by Amber Roberts and Amber Devereux, and with music composed by Waritsara Yui Karlberg, with our episode thumbnail by Uppoa Piers, and transcription performed by Sam Wyman, Rowan B, Rachel Aldred, Georgia Griffiths and Becky. And we would especially like to thank our producer-level Patreons. Who are:
Ashleigh, Alyx & Flint: Becky Cheatle, Mx Spectrum, Jordan Star, Lee Downs, Lindsay Cannon, George Simmons, Carly Silvers, B2, Smiley, friend of Candy from across the pond, The Socialist Party of Great Britain (1904), Sarah, Erris, Tim Rufo, Maestrum, Lex Phoenix, Sebastian Sings Soprano, Joe the enby is working on their self depreciation (good on ya, Joe), Andrea Brooks, Jack Edwards, Stefan Blakemore, [unclear], needles and threads, Flaming Dathne, Dr McGee, Gen, Janeway, Katie Reynolds, Georgia Holden Burnett, Grabilicious, Mx Aphen, Rootminusone, Grey, Elisabeth Anderson, Bernice Roust, Ellen Mellor, Jay Hoskins, Trowan, Ashley, Setcab, Jane, Roberto de Prunk, Rose Absolute, Sarah, Sinna, Kiki T, Dee, Skye Kilaen, Eric Widman, Bee, Jude, [French accordion] monsieur squirrel, Fergus Evans, anubisajackal, Brandon Craig, braykthasistim, Sian Phillips, Heidi Rearden, Lentil, clara vulliamy, Amelia, Samantha Raven, [bring the thunder] Ravenheart bringer of the heavy metal, Fiona Macdonell, Murgatroid, ontologicallyunjust, Stella, Cyndergosa, Rebecca Prentice, [reverb] Crazzee Richard, danoblivion, Florence Stanley, Helen_, Elle Hollingsworth, Melody Nix, Fiona Punchard, John, CB Bailey, Gordon Cameron, Ted Delphos, Kai Luren, Vic Parsons, Patreon User, Vic Kelly, Katherine, Sabrina McVeigh, Cassius Adair, Melissa Brooks, Karaken12, April Heller, Sofie Lewis, Alexandra Lilly, Claire Scott, Ariadne Pena, Lauren O’Nions, Bernard’s Pink Jellybean. And Lenos.
Ashleigh: Thank you.
Flint: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, all 97 of you. [laughs]
Alyx: Whoever’s left at the end of next week.
Flint: You know what? Thank the other two anyway, for sticking around for however long they did. [laughs]
[blooper reel beep]Ashleigh: …which infamously chose to cast Ready– ugh. Ready Edmain.
[laughter]
