On this somewhat heavy episode of What the Trans?! Flint, Alyx and Ashleigh talk about:
- Is anti-trans sentiment on the rise in the UK? One single, solitary poll says yes, but the team are unconvinced.
- Several difficult stories coming out of the US, with trigger warnings included.
- The tribunal around NHS Fife nurse Sandie Peggie rumbles on, now vocally supported by Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar.
- Speaking of Labour, “gender critical” members of the party have performed their signature move and created another splinter group.
- And an interview with Dee Whitnell, a writer, creator and sex educator.
Check out those two articles we mentioned!
Did the Cass Review shred the truth? – What The Trans!?
Trans Allies Systematically Intimidated Inside Tavistock
References:
YouGov
Anti-trans sentiment among British people is increasing, YouGov data shows
Where does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2024/25? | YouGov
The recent YouGov poll was commissioned by an anti-trans group, respondents not chosen at random : r/transgenderUK (claim debunked in comments, worth reading to bust the myth)
Lemkin Institute
Red Flag Alert for the Anti-Trans Agenda of the Trump Administration in the United States (archive copy)
Sam Nordquist (TRIGGER WARNING: Transphobic violence, death)
Vigils honor life of Sam Nordquist, trans man tortured and killed in upstate New York
Friends: Search for Sam Nordquist started weeks before official missing report
Tahiry Broom (TRIGGER WARNING: Transphobic violence, death)
Black trans woman Tahiry Broom killed in Michigan
Elisa Rae Shupe (TRIGGER WARNING: Suicide)
Inside the Secret Working Group That Helped Push Anti-Trans Laws Across the Country – Mother Jones
Eden Knight (TRIGGER WARNING: Suicide)
Lawyer in Saudi trans student’s suicide note had embassy links, BBC finds
Eden Knight: Saudi Trans Woman’s Suicide Sparks Outrage in Community
SAY THEIR NAMES
NHS Fife Tribunal
Government accused of ‘moral cowardice’ in single-sex spaces row – BBC News
Nurse in transgender doctor row faces disciplinary hearing – BBC News
UNISON
Labour LGB
Labour LGB: Affiliate stung by second splinter group over trans rights – LabourList
Trans Radio UK Film
DC Comics Writer Comes Out!
Black Lightning creator Jenny Blake Isabella comes out as trans in heartfelt post • GCN
Trans Joy
TDoV Event at Argonaut, Edinburgh: https://bsky.app/profile/quill.scot/post/3lic5yoakj222
Trans Sci-fi short film by Tilly Bridges: https://bsky.app/profile/tillybridges.bsky.social/post/3limpwwbijs2w
Transcript
Ashleigh: I’m going to take that back. I’m not going to say what else can we piss on? That doesn’t seem appropriate [music]
Flint: Hello everybody and welcome to What The Trans.
Ashleigh: What The Trans. How are we all?
Flint: Doing well, pretty tired. I was in London for the last little while. So like I’ve still been crocheting. I’ve still been crafting. It’s been nice. Yeah, I was in London for a little bit and missing my boy. my dog. So I’m back home now and I’m enjoying it. Vibing, yeah.
Alyx: Giving you an early morning as well from what I heard.
Flint: Yeah. He woke up this morning at like 6:30, just kind of barking. Yeah. And he very rarely barks. Like he never barks. So I knew someone was wrong and he just needed to go outside. That was my wake-up this morning. But it’s my friend’s birthday tomorrow, so I’m going to be seeing them later today and tomorrow so that will be a good time. They’re coming over.
Alyx: I don’t know I was going up North.
Flint: Because it’s your birthday too, isn’t it?
Alyx: It’s my birthday tomorrow as well.
Ashleigh: It is, yeah. Fun times. Have you got anything interesting planned or are you just going to chill out for it.
Alyx: I wish I could say it was chilled out, but I’ve got to be dragged out of bed at some point and what do we – I would say it’s quite a nice one though, because I’m off to roll out, but I’m off to the Royal Albert Hall to see [inaudible]. I think I’ve mentioned it on here.
Ashleigh: Oh, nice. Yeah. You spoke about it last time. Very cool.
Alyx: The new show. So I was like, you know what? Why not? Let’s give it another go.
Ashleigh: Well, on the subject of shows, I think I think I’ve got that beat, because I went to see a Pink Floyd tribute band.
Flint: Were they Pinkish Floyd?
Ashleigh: Yeah. They were, they were Brit Floyd is it? Yeah.
Flint: Brit Floyd, I can’t.
Alyx: Slight bit of patriotism added.
Ashleigh: Yeah, well, because one of the big Pink Floyd tribute bands, to the extent I saw them at the MEN arena like 20 years ago, is the Australian Pink Floyd Show. And so where there’s an animal featured in Pink Floyd like, you know, the inflatable pig off the cover of Animals or whatever, it’s a kangaroo.
Ashleigh: So there’s always a kangaroo somewhere in the artwork, so Brit Floyd presumably rose as – hey, you know, let’s have some home grown covering of Pink Floyd songs.
But it was just fucking wonderful because obviously it’s not just about the music, which I’m intimately familiar with, but like the lasers, the light show, the haze, the projections and all that kind of audio-visual stuff was just amazing and I wish I’d have some like edibles beforehand.
Alyx: No, exactly. I saw on your Instagram the visuals looked brilliant.
Ashleigh: Yes. Yes. Oh yeah. So many lasers. And they played like several songs that you might not have expected, but that I loved them for doing like they did Empty Spaces into What Should We Do Now? [inaudible] which was cut off the main version of The Wall because it was too long, but it’s in the film and it’s on the live album of The Wall, Is there anybody out there?
Which for years I thought I’d hallucinated that album because I couldn’t find it on streaming. I couldn’t find it on YouTube, but it turns out it is real. I have it on my hard drive and now I have it on Minidisc.
Alyx: Yeah, that one that you got recently.
Ashleigh: Yep. Yep, Yep. Yep. Because I am all about cutting edge technology and music. Very. Music that is definitely of the current moment with my Minidisc and Pink Floyd. So yeah, that’s me. You can tell I’ve hit 40.
Alyx: Yeah, just get rid of that discounted technology they call Spotify, yeah.
Flint: Right. You know what, though? I kind of relate somewhat there because I, as much as I’ve spoken a lot about really loving rave music and ridiculous extremities of sound, I also really, really enjoy a good bit of Dad Rock and I used to listen to a lot of just like really old school, like blues and rock and stuff like that. And I came across recently, in Newcastle as we were going on the way in for a comedy gig, actually, seeing a comedian, Aurie Styla, we had to go past a little music shop. And I had like a full double take moment when I walked past the window because. I saw for the first time in my life a physical vinyl of Rory Gallagher, who is, yeah, who’s one of my like all time favourite blues musicians. I will info dump about him for 5 minutes if I’m given the opportunity so I won’t do that now.
Ashleigh: Thank you.
Flint: He’s a very, very, very cool person and my dad got me into his music when I was probably about 11 or 12. I’ve never seen anything beyond, I think, a beaten up CD that my dad had. Everything else has been through downloads or whatever, but it was, not only was it a vinyl collection, it was also two Blu Rays and it had over like 120 something tracks, like unreleased music and I was like, ah, this is like the vault. This is like The Beatles anthology. But like for Rory Gallagher. And it was too much money.
Ashleigh: Shut up and take my money.
Flint: It was very much that, but alas I had none. So I just cried about it, yeah.
Ashleigh: On the way to a comedy gig. Yeah, well, hopefully that cheered you up.
Flint: It really did. Actually, it was a really funny time.
Ashleigh: Awesome. Speaking of really funny times, let’s not have one of those, because this is What The Trans and we do the news. But first, before we do the news, let’s talk about things that you can do because a lot of the news can be quite heavy. Unfortunately, that is the case for this episode, so let’s talk about some concrete actions that you can take, and encourage your friends and especially your cis friends, to take in defence of trans people.
Flint: So first up, we have a petition calling for NHS policy to remain trans inclusive in the face of rumoured reviews regarding the policies for single sex wards. The NHS Constitution is required to get a review or check up, if you will [sound effects], every 10 years, with the most recent one being initiated by the Tory government in 2024. We can’t exactly trust them to set the ball rolling in the good direction. So definitely go and sign it. At the time of writing, the petition already has over 13,000 signatures. Having past 10K, we have a rather long and drab official response. Though being told this guidance is currently under review hardly inspires confidence, so we’ll provide a link to the petition so you can read the full response and sign for yourselves below. The more the merrier.
Alyx: Speaking of petitions, the Good Law Project has also put up a letter writing campaign to Sky to pull any kind of advertisements for GB News following some really shitty comments by some presenters on GB News, basically saying that paedophiles are part of the LGBTQ community. This is just shitty. We’re going to link that in the description below, so feel free to pop your own signature there to show that we don’t want any hate in the news.
Ashleigh: Yeah. And so that this petition is related to. A complaint to Ofcom, which I think, yeah, I signed myself. So I sent Ofcom an e-mail saying, look, this is bullshit. You can’t have them just broadcasting hate. But Sky have taken advertising space on GB News. So this campaign is specifically saying to Sky: Oy, what the fuck are you doing?
Flint: Yeah, good, as I said.
Alyx
Can’t put it better myself.
Flint: And we also have a little notice board section briefly because we’ve got two pretty amazing articles that have come out this week on the What the Trans website and well, we wanted to shout them out just in case you haven’t come across them.
So firstly, the amazing Reactive Ashley has written for us going into her recent Freedom of Information requests that show the paper trail of the Cass review or lack thereof. Look at the article for the full tea, but here is a sip. Either some important information is Missing in Action, or it’s been destroyed, which is pretty illegal. And then secondly, we have our very own Alyx, who has uncovered systemic intimidation inside of the Tavistock GIDS clinic, which is equal parts horrid and unsurprising. But don’t let that stop you from digging into the full details. What was it like writing such a banger?
Alyx: You know, I like to dip my toes in a small bit of investigative journalism on the odd occasion.
Ashleigh: Yeah, it’s a really good article. Nice work. So both of those are worth reading. A large part of what we do does go on the website, so please do keep an eye on that.
Alyx: And now we’re on to the news.
Ashleigh: We are indeed, onto the news [sound effects]. I want to start with something that seems like a negative, but I want to try and undermine it slightly, so it’s not as bad as it might initially appear. You might have seen this week that there was a YouGov poll about trans people, and it apparently looks like anti-trans sentiment is on the rise here in the UK. Okay, so as I said, I’m going to start by giving you the bad news first. But as I’ve said, all is not lost. I’ll do my best to take it apart right afterwards. Right then, the bad stuff. I’m going to give you a bunch of stats, but don’t worry if you’re only half listening while doing something else. The numbers themselves aren’t actually all that important for reasons we’ll get to later. Plus I’ll be throwing out some comparisons with the last time YouGov ran this same survey, which was back in 2022. So according to this one survey, the percentage of people who think that trans people shouldn’t be allowed to even socially transition has gone up 10 percentage points from 25% in 2022 to 35% in 2024 compared to 49% of people who believe we should be able to. But even that stance itself is down from 55% from a couple of years ago.
When it comes to if we should be able to legally change our gender, we have 34% saying we should and 49% saying we shouldn’t. So, thanks for that. But again, we see the more permissive stance having gone down from 40% in 22. And the oppositional stance has gone up from 37, so that’s a rise of 11 percentage points. Unfortunately, we do see this same trend reflected in each of the different stats when broken down by age range and gender, and so on. Even in the places you’d expect to see a consistent rise like among younger people and among women, these have gone down too. For example, in 2022, 44% of women supported allowing people to legally change their gender, but in the newer stats, that figure has fallen to 37%. The same question about approval for legal gender changes has dropped by 7 percentage points among those aged 18 to 24. And on it goes right, support for trans men using the men’s bathroom has fallen. Support for use of puberty blockers in those under 16 has fallen. Support for trans people in sport has fallen, and in particular people were less supportive of trans women in women’s sports than they were of trans men in men’s sports. Funny that, how could that have possibly happened?
But right the crux of it is, the thing is, with this survey, obviously in one sense it’s not surprising given that we’re deep into a years long anti-trans crusade by governments and media companies. But the main thing that I want you to take away from this is that this survey was done on a mere 2000 people, out of every one of the millions here in Britain. They invited these 2000 people to fill in a survey. I don’t think this is particularly representative. And again, this wasn’t a survey that went out widely on the YouGov website. It was one that people had to be invited to fill in. So who was chosen to be invited and by what metric was that decided? In all, about 600 people were fully supportive of trans people and about 600 people were at the most gender fascistic possible level and said trans people shouldn’t be permitted to change gender, either socially or legally, and that doesn’t seem right to me. We have more support than we think and there’s one other thing I want to clear up too. There was a rumour going around that this survey had been commissioned by Sex Matters and the reason the outcome was more negative was that they’d shared it among their own members, which then weighted the results to their recalcitrant perspective. This was just a rumour. It’s not true. Sex Matters had nothing to do with commissioning this survey. It was part of a YouGov series of polls that goes all the way back to 2018. So yeah, it’s just one poll and polls, you know, there’s that old phrase lies, damned lies and statistics. Yeah.
Flint: And. It’s one of those things where, like YouGov polls, I just. They seem to be the performance of a social science a lot of the time for me.
It’s, because the second that it’s, you know, invite only and things like that. They’re really curating. That’s not to say that there’s no integrity, there’s not to say that it’s not done with the aim of getting a vague understanding of where people are at. I don’t trust YouGov polls that much because of the level of like invite and whatnot. And because polls in general are pretty unreliable, so you know what a surprise that you know, people who would be a part of the You Gov poll system might have some slightly more than average anti-trans views. That doesn’t surprise me. It just indicates that they are people that read a lot of the current news cycle like that’s it.
Alyx: It so basically I think YouGov was originally founded by Nadim Sahawi, the cabinet member in Boris Johnson’s government, Liz Truss’s and so on. There was like a whole big protest at Warwick Uni ages ago for his role in launching the original schools guidance outing trans kids to parents.
Because I remember speaking to the protesters of that and going up to Seamus’s [inaudible] back in 2022. So it’s me casting my mind back a long way.
Ashleigh: Basically, this poll is not meaningless completely, but kind of meaningless adjacent, because it’s just a fucking poll and I don’t think it’s particularly representative really, because almost everybody you meet is like, well, live and live. Yes, there’s some dickheads around. There’s always some dickheads around.
Flint: Yeah. It’s less of a stink bomb and more of a fart in an elevator.
Alyx: And now we move our eye over the pond the US, when the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention has placed a red flag alert for the anti-trans agenda for the Trump administration, one that has since been deleted. But we’ll get into the Why in a bit. In this statement on the 14th of February, the Lemkin Institute states that they condemn the anti-trans agenda of the second Trump administration and that it is meant to pave the way for greater state repression against all individuals and other groups in the future. It then says to trans Americans, we send our solidarity and support and the usual sort of thing. However, quite concerningly this statement then went on to say, that in their specific obsession with trans women, these initiatives also exhibit a clear misandry or hatred of men. With that wording, it essentially calls trans women men, the same transphobia that they are claiming to oppose. The mistake isn’t great, but it’s easy to correct by just removing that sentence and a little bit of rewording. Fair enough. But no, the Lemkin Institute then labels any of the corrections people are advising on rewording the statement as left on left violence and decides to leave Bluesky altogether, and in some weird retaliation that really gives us red flags, it deletes the red flag. Later, we also find out that the statement wasn’t written or edited by anyone who is trans before it’s published. When you’re trying to engage with the community and come to give support, you need to listen to them. Doubling down and attacking them for your own mistake is not how it’s done. They’ve said they’ll be rewriting the statement, but given what was on it and – there will be a bitter taste. As the Lemkin Institute handled it in the worst way possible.
Ashleigh: They did. I used to just be on Twitter all the time and there were developing stories on Twitter, and so this was my first developing story on Bluesky that I kind of followed all the way through just, you know, from seeing the thing published to then seeing all of the negative feedback, let’s say. Let’s start with the fact that they put out a red alert, red flag alert rather which, yeah. That’s entirely justifiable, and I believe them calling it, you know, it’s paving the way for greater repression is absolutely true, I think. There’s no two ways about it. What they’re doing is extremely concerning, particularly if you’re an Institute for Genocide Prevention.
And all of that stuff is just clearing the road for, I mean, who the hell knows what they’re going to do next and it? It’s looking very, very similar to certain other genocides within the 20th century. Even – you know the one I mean.
So the fact that they’ve put a red flag out. Good. Yes. Someone’s calling it as it is. You know, people, someone is saying we have to be really concerned about this because yeah, we do. But they fucked it up so much, man.
Flint: Yeah. And like you can kind of, or at least I think I can see the point that they were trying to make, but then they made the complete opposite point. It’s weird to bring any conversation of misandry into a conversation that’s on trans women. If you want to talk about the dehumanisation of masculinity that can happen in radical fem and like anti-trans spaces. Then we can talk about that and we should probably talk about it with regards to trans men and not, not trans women. That’s where you really fucked up on that one. My dudes, like big time big time.
Alyx: There was good intentions, but then the execution went very badly.
Ashleigh: Yes, yes indeed. And the fact that they’ve responded to it not by saying, OK, I see what you’re saying. Thank you very much for the correction. You’re absolutely right. We should have got somebody trans to look over it. We will correct it immediately. Great. That’s how you do accountability, right? But no, they doubled down, and said, oh, all this left on left violence, it’s difficult to see, we’re going to leave Bluesky altogether. It’s like. Wow, you know someone? Hell hath no fury like a cis ally scorned.
Flint: Yeah. Yeah, no, for real. It’s very much “you don’t like the way that I’m deciding to speak for you? Oh, I’m so upset”.
Like, get the fucking memo or get out the fucking room like this isn’t – it’s infuriating. This next story to talk about is a rough one. I don’t really know how to how to get into it.
OK, so there’s no quippy or funny introduction to this one. The next few stories are going to be talking about Sam Nordquist, Eden Knight, Tahiri Broome, and Elisa Rae Shupe. These are all deaths that have happened in our community. We don’t go into any gruesome details, but of course if you wish to skip past to the point where we’re no longer discussing that, if you’re just not in a mental space to be able to listen to mourning and a bit of grief, then that’s completely understandable. Take care of yourself.
If you are wanting to skip all that and I would not blame you if you did, skip to 33 minutes and 29 seconds. We’ll see you.
Flint: Now we will not be going into any gruesome details, but we do have to talk about Sam Nordquist. So Sam Nordquist was a black trans man whose remains were found on February 13th. He had travelled to upstate New York to meet a girlfriend in late September and was due to return after two weeks. But when the time came mid-October, he didn’t, and then eventually lost contact with his family in January, who then filed a missing person’s report on February 9th. But people known to him and in the area were looking for weeks before that. Some is described as having a heart of gold who couldn’t hurt anybody and being an animal lover by his mother. He worked with disabled people. He was loving. She also said he would give you the shirt off his back. Very kind, loved his family, loved his nieces and nephew. Very outgoing, he worked hard. His sister Kayla said that he was a silly person and would never forget the birthdays of her children and loved taking them trick or treating. Hundreds of people have turned up to vigils in person or online in the memory of him. Evidence shows that Sam was tortured from December to February before his murder, and that’s all the details that we will be giving in terms of his suffering. Police found that his remains had likely been moved in attempts to cover it up, and so far, they’ve tried to claim that Sam’s murder is not a hate crime, as some of the seven, yes, seven people that have been arrested may also be LGBT. However, that would indicate that cis queer people are incapable of transphobic violence, or that people would be incapable of committing a hate crime against someone else if lumped into the same category, even if we’re talking about two totally different kinds of lived experiences. Police have commented on the level of violence, too. The captain of New York State Police, Kelly Swift, saying “in my 20 year law enforcement career this is one of the most horrific crimes I have ever investigated”. But Sam’s mother has said that his murder was preventable and has publicly criticised the police for not following up on the two wellness checks the family requested for him, one of which was in mid-October when he first failed to return. While the police are insensitively claiming that she is simply confused about which police force she spoke to. Sam had also told local social services himself that he was in danger. Sam’s sister also said, I don’t want people to remember him like that. He was beautiful. He was handsome. That’s how people should remember him, not what was done to him. And so to respect those wishes, we will close with a brief statement from a friend that knew him, Danny Scott, who said to news outlets: before Sam’s death, I was not very open about being a trans man, but seeing Sam’s story makes me want to be more open. Sam’s life mattered, and if there is any type of hate crime, this would be one.
I know some people may want to go and look up what specifically was done or what’s been reported? Please, please, very seriously, do not go looking for details unless you have the strength, especially trans masc and trans men.
There’s also on the morning of the day that Sam was reported missing, February 9th. A trans woman called Tahiri Broome was shot and killed in Southfield, Michigan. Now there is a GoFundMe for funeral costs and services, where she’s been described by her aunt as brilliant, vibrant, confident. She loved her friends and family, very outgoing and loved to live life to the fullest. Genuinely one of the sweetest souls you’d ever meet, and she said the same thing that was said about Sam saying that Tahiri would give anyone the shirt off her back. Funny, smart, like one of those people that can walk into the darkest room and find some light in it. She shined a light that’s going to shine forever and ever and ever and ever. She had planned to meet a man there who had contacted her through an advert for sex work. Her assailant had placed 33 calls to sex workers that morning, most of them being black women and trans women. The man in question has been arrested for second degree murder, felony firearm possession and carrying concealed weapons charges. The violence is on the rise.
Ashleigh: Yes.
Flint: One of the thankful things is there’s actual arrests this time.
Ashleigh: Yes.
Flint: But it’s so much not anywhere near enough.
Ashleigh: Yeah.
Flint: Because yeah. Justice in a legal system like that is not particularly easy to come by also.
Ashleigh: Yeah, indeed. Particularly not justice for people of colour, you know.
Flint: Yeah, absolutely.
Ashleigh: Like. Of course it was a hate crime. What else would it have been?
So there’s something that I just want to touch on with regards to the coverage of Sam Nordquist, which is they’ve used quite a lot of photographs of him like early in transition and later on the photos that have been shared by his family and friends are of this moustachioed, slightly bearded trans man. You know, he’s very definitely on testosterone and he’s smiling. He’s got so much life behind his eyes.
But that’s those aren’t the pictures that are being used. They’re using the pictures from just after he came out, when he when he looks a little, you know, still looks a little bit more femme, let’s say, and that kind of like, why, why? Why are you showing those pictures?
Alyx: It doesn’t do the same justice as the most recent ones would.
Flint: Yeah, it doesn’t and I think it’s, it’s that thing of, he looks more like a quote unquote trans person, as I think most of the cis journalists will consider, right. At least that’s what my immediate thought was when I saw the way in which they were deciding to show photos of him. It’s like you went for the ones where you seem to think he passed the least. And that’s really distressing. I mean, there’s a whole conversation on passing, you know, and there’s a lot of minutiae and nuance within all that, but it’s just, it’s upsetting to not see someone represented the way that they looked when they were most recently here and what they look like, you know what I mean?
Alyx: What they would be most proud to be looking like.
Flint: Yeah. There is a lot of fuckery with the way in which the media represent missing and murdered people and the way in which they represent marginalised people at that. So of course, these two things coalesce into that kind of fuckery.
Ashleigh: Well, unfortunately it doesn’t stop there. There is another death in America that we need to cover, Elisa Rae Shupe, a US veteran, who was the first person in the US to gain a gender X marker on a legal documentation. She also recently died by suicide. Elisa was nonbinary, but used she her pronouns and she was wrapped in a trans flag when she died. Elisa had a fairly public and complicated life, being the first to get that legal recognition of gender. In 2016, she was known as a trans activist and trailblazer. By 2019, she was a vocal de-transitioner, but then she re-transitioned in 2022 and came out about that publicly, calling out those who were using her story as support for conversion therapy. She also played a part in the uncovering of emails in 2023 showing large scale coordination between state representatives and groups like the Alliance Defending Freedom to push anti-trans laws all over the US. She had a wife and child and a friend called Sue who knew her and said this on a Pittsburgh lesbians correspondents blog, which commemorated her: Rest in power, my friend. You did change my life. I hope you would be proud of me. I admire your determination to advocate for the trans community. Your death is devastating. I will miss you forever. Oh man.
Flint: Yeah. Yeah, it’s well.
Ashleigh: Sorry it’s just –
Flint: No, it’s fine. I was crying when I wrote both so these. It’s so much. When I first heard about the story of Elisa as well, like when I first heard about all three of the people we have so far discussed. It hits but like at first we didn’t know who Elisa was. We just knew that there was someone who had you know? Completed an attempt. And that really hit, like the thing about the trans flag really hits. And the stuff like this is a rough one.
Alyx: Absolutely heartbreaking.
Ashleigh: It is and it’s not an easy thing to write about or, you know, talk about because you just don’t know what to say, really.
Flint: When you know she did leave a note as well and you know, we had the question of do we share some of those words or not, they are available for people that want to find them. We decided to follow the Samaritans guidelines on how media should report on suicide, which is why we haven’t included any.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah.
Flint: It’s fucking rough and yeah. It’s really fucking rough.
Ashleigh: So there is something I want to talk about in terms of the US news, but let’s get through it first and then we’ll talk about that.
Alyx: So yeah, unfortunately there’s more tragic news to follow. Some of you may have heard of the tragic story of Eden Knight, a trans woman whose lawyer manipulated Eden into returning to Saudi Arabia with false legal advice and forcibly de-transitioning her and isolating her from her friends by telling her to close off her Twitter account, making her life hell. Which then led to Eden dying from suicide. Victoria, one of Eden’s many friends told Rolling Stone that she wanted to be a role model and a leader for Saudi trans women. The Rolling Stone article also details a friend called Bailey, who housed Eden when she initially came to Georgia; “She needed a place to stay, so we let her live with us in our house in Georgia”. They tell Rolling Stone, Bailey was already living with their young son and spouse, but Knight quickly became part of the family. “We shared movies and music. I cooked for her plenty too. My son loved her more than anything. She would play with him and teach him things such as this cute game where he’d run up and hug someone, she said it’s a Saudi thing. She cared for him as if they were related. My spouse and I gave her a bracelet with the word Aunt etched into it.” But it has been [inaudible]. On the 11th February for BBC published a new article naming the lawyer who took her. In this story, the BBC details the journey in which Bader Alammar has taken to take her to Saudi Arabia. In the article, the BBC also approached the Saudi Embassy and Bader for a comment, something which received no comment.
Flint: One of the first trans protests that I went to was for Eden Knight outside of the Saudi embassy. Yeah. I just when I saw this news, it just kind of took me back there. It was also the first time I saw Sarah Jane Baker speak. And. Yeah. Fuck’s sake, dude. This fucking shit. Sometimes this world is just so cruel.
Ashleigh: Yeah, I think that. The problem with that lawyer is. I’m not sure he did anything illegal, you know.
Flint: That’s the awful thing, isn’t it? Like, you can see such moral and ethical, evil, absolute evil, this is coercive and abusive behaviour. But is it illegal? You know, and that’s also something that, you know, a lot of this story takes place in different parts of the world. Which can also bring legality to be awkward.
It’s. Yeah, it’s difficult to see how justice can happen here. I hope something some form does, but I mean again it’s that thing of like justice from what system?
Ashleigh: Yeah, you know by who? From who? What does justice even look like?
Flint: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Alyx: I was quite surprised that the BBC put together an article like this even as well.
Ashleigh: Yeah, BBC haven’t been great on trans stuff recently, have they?
Alyx: No. It’s not just been they’ve just been laser focused on other things, it’s just been horrid on their side.
Ashleigh: Yeah, it has. Yeah, obviously there’s a few stories from different parts of the world. We wanted to highlight, obviously, Britain’s not the only place where things are hard. We apologise if that those last few stories have brought you down a little bit because it certainly has for us. But here’s something that rather than getting maudlin about, here’s something to get angry about.
Flint: Yeah.
Ashleigh: Which is much better.
Flint: Yeah. Well, it’s something to channel that emotion to, I guess. You are probably wishing the media would shut up about this hearing brought upon us all by Sandie Peggie and her cruel, relentless, vindictive campaign to make a trans woman’s life hell for just existing. But she won’t Fife down, so we can’t, especially now the politicians are jumping on the bandwagon. But on Friday the 14th, the tribunal came to a close and now we wait until July to hear more. And of course, we’ve had the one tribunal, but, well, turns out there’s going to be a second, according to a BBC article, Sandie has been called to another separate disciplinary hearing, this time also including failures of patient care. Now. This is going to sound wild. OK, pre context here. It’s going to sound wild, but part of the allegations is that when Doctor Upton simply walked into a patient resuscitation room. Yes, a room that resuscitates people to keep them alive, Sandie Peggie would just leave, and when Beth went to give information about a patient to Sandie Peggie, Sandie would just straight up ignore her, literally ignoring vital information needed for someone’s care, potentially their life. Now from what I can see, Sandie Peggie is spiteful and vindictive, which could be dangerous to the people that she is meant to serve and look after.
So, it is no surprise that Anas Sarwar and the Scottish Labour Party have seen that they have a lot in common and come to Sandie’s defence. Because on the 17th of February, in response to this tribunal, Anas Sarwar said that he regretted whipping MPs in favour of the gender recognition reforms in 2023 and that Peggie shouldn’t have been taken to a tribunal for refusing to do her job. Because everyone knows that U-turning so publicly for the sake of right-wing popularity is a great display of deep convictions and integrity. And just then when we think that we are done, Falkner gets in the ring and has given a statement from the EHRC on their involvement, saying [sound effects] Today we reminded NHS Fife of their obligation to protect individuals from discrimination and harassment on the basis of protected characteristics including sex, religion or belief and gender reassignment. They have asked NHS Fife for a copy of quote any equality impact assessment relating to the provision of changing facilities for staff. Any information relevant to how such policies have been kept under review and any details on steps taken to ensure that the rights of different groups are balanced in the application of these policies, before finally throwing in a reference to upcoming guidance in a way that feels threatening considering the EHRC history here, just saying that’s what I saw. Quote, “this week media reported on NHS Scotland’s forthcoming guide to transitioning, which the Scottish Government confirmed has been shared with health boards in preparation for its implementation. It is important that this guide and all guidance, policies and practises which rely on it faithfully reflect and comply with the Equality Act 2010”. Like, yeah, sure. But why are you including that here? And we all know that the definition the EHRC has of the Equality Act isn’t exactly in full alignment with the spirit of the legislation, shall we say.
Ashleigh: I saw her statement and just couldn’t stop thinking about, oh, my God [sound effects], it’s Kishwer Falkner. With a steel chair.
Flint: That really is. That is like one, Oh my God, it’s becoming a Royal Rumble at this point. Yeah.
Alyx: I remember when this started happening? I thought it wasn’t going to be a big fuss, it ‘ll just be another tribunal, nothing big.
Ashleigh: Just a tribunal. No big deal.
Alyx: And then it just fucking became this gigantic circus mess of a thing, where the who’s who of anti-trans fuckery and the government, outside the government, politicians just coming in to try and have their way in two cents.
Then wall to wall coverage on all news media outlets going oh look, big tribunal where trans people shouldn’t exist or something because yeah. And they’re trying to put their full weight and support behind this person who just looks like just – have you seen the amount of shit she’s trying to put Upton through? You know the way they went through with the fucking publicly naming her.
Ashleigh: Insisting on misgendering her throughout the entire tribunal.
Flint: And they’re really giving it the full razzle dazzle. Like, no, no stone unturned. No, no, no fooling about, they’ve got Richard Gere floating around in a fucking suit.
Alyx: Hasn’t Wes Streeting also weighed in on this as well because he was, there was like a whole thing over concerns over if a doctor changes their gender that their previous faults in their previous gender wouldn’t be reflected on their current one.
Flint: Well, he probably thinks he’s walking in like Billy Flynn, but in reality, in a few years he’s going to be like Amos. Sorry, I’m making too many Chicago references now.
Alyx: Like, I’ll take your word for that one, Flint.
Flint: I got what you were talking about.
Flint: That’s the John C Reilly character. Yeah, Mr Cellophane.
Ashleigh: I only clocked it when you were talking about Richard Gere, the first one, but then the second one was like, wait, what was that again? But yes, give them the old razzle dazzle. So this tribunal. Thankfully, it’s now finished until July. Just the fact that Anas Sarwar has said that she shouldn’t have been taken to a tribunal for refusing to do her job.
Like if anybody else in any other set of circumstances refuses to do their job, they get pulled up, they get put on the disciplinary and they get fired because, like, we’re hired you to do a job and you’re not fucking doing it. So either sort yourself out or go and find another job.
Alyx: Yes and NHS Fife did exactly what they should have.
Flint: Quite. Yeah. Well, yeah, because like, this is the thing. It’s even in the legal precedent that, you know, TERFs love to wave around as if it isn’t toilet paper stuck on their shoe. It then only covers the situations where you know someone has a belief, it doesn’t cover actions that you take in accordance with that belief. Like so, it’s because I’m pretty sure, in that case the thing that they harped on about was, oh, well, it’s now our protected belief. It’s like, yeah, but all of the other things that she actually physically did were not covered just because she believed that thing. So the same thing should apply here.
Alyx: Bullying is bullying no matter what you believe.
Flint: And also like refusal to do your job, like refusal to show a basic level of professional conduct in the face of someone that you disagree with.
Alyx: Sandie Peggie, like they tried to show Sandie Peggie as this like whatever, as a hero and all that shit. But then when you look into the details, it just falls apart so quickly. And yet they’re putting their full weight behind this person and not just waiting for another tribunal where things might be a bit more ambiguous.
Ashleigh: She’s so unambiguously vindictive, isn’t she?
Alyx: So while Anas Sarwar has, you know, been an idiot. The SNP and the Green Party have come out to say they don’t regret trying to pass the Gender Recognition Act. They’ve put little statements on there saying that their leaders are all proud and so on so. That at least some part of the Scottish Parliament is still standing by it.
Ashleigh: Yeah, yeah, some parts of the Scottish Parliament still have some sense, but it just every time, you know, liberals in a neoliberal system, the liberals are trying to move to the right to try and caught the right-wing voters. [sound effects]
And in so doing, are betraying everything that they’re supposed to stand for. So the leader of Scottish Labour is just trying to court the right. Like the Democrats did in America.
Flint: Yeah. Yeah, it worked so well for them. It worked wonderfully for them. Yeah. Yeah. Great tactic.
Ashleigh: Yeah, went really nicely. Really went really nicely.
Alyx: It funnily happens to coincide with reports that polling for Scottish Labour were falling drastically and then they decide to jump on an anti-trans bandwagon. Conveniently, about the same time to distract away from we’re failing to get the polls right, done. It’s although we can’t really talk about polls too much. How much we’ve harped on about it in a previous story!
Ashleigh: Yeah, you need to do something to – that’s very true, actually, yeah, probably shouldn’t. To put too much stock in a poll, given what we said.
Flint: True, but it’s also it’s just – we have the advantage of time. We have the advantage of seeing how certain tactics play out in a bigger country. Yet no one fucking listens. No one looks. No one goes. Oh, am I doing the same thing that these people that failed pretty catastrophically did? Maybe I don’t.
Alyx: It’s like a fucking pantomime sometimes, isn’t it? He is behind you. No, he isn’t.
Flint: It’s more like lemmings at this point. You will just follow anything if you think that’s where a vote will be. That’s not how this fucking works.
Ashleigh: Yeah, exactly. Feels like people should have some principles, but clearly that’s too much to ask.
Alyx: Start a fashion in politics.
Flint: Well, they do have principles, they have principles of power [sound effects]. Principles of profits and principles of keeping the people that are in power on their good side though. They’re just principles that aren’t in line with the working people.
Ashleigh: Pretty much anyway. All right, moving on.
Alyx: Not fabulous. Speaking of people with principles. In a recent vote at the Unison Women’s Conference, we’ve now found out that they have voted in favour of a motion for the states trans woman are women, trans men are men and non-binary people exist, with no votes against it. The same motion for also said that trans women don’t pose a threat to cis women.
Ashleigh: Good. Yeah, someone’s sticking up for us.
Flint: Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. I’m glad for it.
Alyx: It’s a bit of an inside tee, this one from Unison itself, but also I’ve also found out recently that the health conference for Unison has invited Wes Streeting into it as well, which has faced some pretty staunch opposition, so I’m keeping an eye on it as things evolve, but at the moment we’re hearing the invite is going to be under hostile questioning.
Like they’re going to be questioning him in a hostile way, but even that feels off anyway, because you’re still inviting the literal devil into your conference.
Ashleigh: Yeah, villain of the year.
Alyx: Villain of the year, literally. But let’s say, if you’re seeing the women’s conference, I’d better put a bit of a contrast on that one, unfortunately. Sorry to put the dampeners on again today.
Ashleigh: People and organisations contain multitudes, right?
Flint: They do, they do. We, it’s hard to know the intentions behind someone inviting Wes Streeting. It could genuinely just be someone who doesn’t recognise the level of, you know, issues that trans people have, like they might understand the fervour around it. They may not understand the reasoning so you know, I mean the hostile questioning element sounds good. I’m just so wary of malicious compliance. I’m so wary of malicious compliance from Wes Streeting and this that the other you know taking opportunities or making opportunities to sort of just entertain us. So you get to say you heard us out and then you do whatever the fuck you want anyway?
But it’s a worry that I can’t put into anything realistic right now. It’s just a concern that floats up in the air around me like a bird that’s got loose.
Ashleigh: I mean, he’s got previous for that exact thing, hasn’t he? He’s met with groups and then immediately betrayed them like literally the next day anyway, that’s not quite the story. Because we started glitching about Wes Streeting again.
Alyx: It’s just part of the bingo list, isn’t it?
Ashleigh: Yeah, it’s definitely a thing we do. Yeah, we need a new bingo card now because the last one had Kemi Badenoch on it.
Alyx: And she’ll pop up again at some point. But yeah, so speaking of Labour being shitty.
Ashleigh: Yeah. As we’ve seen with Labour, they are a bit shit. And as we continue to see the party enshittify itself, we have a New Labour group. Obviously the Labour Women’s Declaration were getting bored, so they decided in a drinking game to form another anti-trans group inside the Labour Party called LGB Labour. A shit version of LGBT Labour, which was already shit to start with and then decided to make themselves evil as well as shit. So in response to this Poundland LGB Alliance, Pride in Labour have said “Pride in Labour exists to champion LGBTQIA+ rights within the Labour Party. We are utterly appalled that a new splinter group, Labour LGB, is seeking to capitalise on the vile transphobia which is so deeply embedded within our society.” We’ll come back to that. “And we will always be extremely clear on this, there is no LGB without the T. We are at an extremely dangerous crossroads where trans people and their right to exist is being brought into question. And we cannot allow this sickening cycle to continue. Be under no illusion the vast majority of gay, lesbian and bisexual people stand firmly with trans people because they have always been and always will be part of our family.” So that’s nice, but also –
Flint: What are you doing?
Ashleigh: Yeah. What is it you’re actually doing to ameliorate any of these problems that you’re talking about and saying, capitalising on the vile transphobia which is so deeply embedded within our society – that you and yours have actually been a had a part in propagating, looking at you, Rosie Duffield? Yeah, you know, and they did nothing about her.
Flint: Yeah, it seems kind of pointless, to be honest. Like. Really pointless. To set up an LGB Alliance group within Labour when Labour already is an LGB Alliance group from the way they are acting. Like, the call is coming from inside the house. You don’t need to build another [inaudible], there’s enough. Stop.
Like, haven’t you got it? You’re in the house already. Leave it alone like that. Why? It just feels like there’s been some kind of argument in a group chat somewhere. And someone got very upset and decided to make that own special group now. And it just feels really pointless because you’ve managed to miss the bus on your own trend.
Like embarrassing. Kind of. Well, speaking of watered down LGB Alliance, let’s take a moment to talk about the OG group for a second [sound effects]. And yes, no, no, I know, I know. I’m sorry. We got through to some of the nicer stories and you probably thought that we were out of the woods for a second after all of the horrors from before, but let’s not forget that losers are still about on the loose, and we managed to corner one legally. [loser’s corner jingle].
So we run a little Loser’s Corner jingle. Except this time it’s about the case of wrongful dismissal from the Council of Arts by a woman who resigned after being brought in for disciplinary processes for leaving a supportive comment for trans people on an in office petition after complaints were made by transphobic work colleagues. Now, if you’re on BlueSky you’ll probably have seen this posted about a few days ago, and if it’s in this section then you’ll know that the claimant won her case, which is fantastic. But when I started looking through the court document itself honestly, it’s actually pretty juicy. Even a bit, might I dare say, meaty. So stay tuned because we’re going to give you a meal sized breakdown of this one next time.
Ashleigh: Yeah, looks fun.
Flint: I tried to not do that thing where I write loads and loads and loads and loads and loads and I failed a little bit and then I was like oh I’ll cut some of this down. It’s fine. I’ll have added in. Oh, but actually no, because this bit connects into here and connects into there, and this is really building up a very interesting story.
Alyx: You made some very good exercising of the cut and paste button.
Ashleigh: So that was that was a fun story to follow, but we’ll do a proper breakdown on the next episode, so look forward to that.
Alyx: Yes. So now we’ve caught you up to speed on current events. We can talk about some really cool films and trans media [sound effects] on the 18th of February, it was announced that a film that has covered two years of the football team, Trans Radio UK, will be having its world premiere at the BFI Flare Film Festival in 2025. This could be such a really cool film featuring some really cool folks, and hopefully we can get some press accreditation to go and see it at BFI Flare this year.
Ashleigh: Yeah.
Flint: My, my, the old fucking absolute film buff [inaudible] is very excited about this.
Alyx: Oh, the BFI Flare is brilliant. We’ve covered it a few times on this podcast.
Ashleigh: Yeah, yeah. We have indeed. Yeah. They kind of just throw press passes at you. It’s like, oh, can we get it? Yes you can. Oh, OK. Didn’t even finish that question.
Alyx: This was my first press accreditation for something when I started doing journalism. It’s great. Yeah, I am a press.
Ashleigh: I look forward to seeing that film because obviously I’m familiar with the work of the team and of Trans Radio UK, who you should check out if you’re that way inclined. If you like listening to things and occasionally putting things in your ears of an audible nature, check them out. I mean, presumably you like listening to things because you’re listening to this chaotic mess of depression and rage and laughter that this podcast so frequently.
Flint: Unless you’re reading it, in which case it’s probably even more difficult to get through because I have to read our speech in our cadence, yeah.
Alyx: Yeah you’ve got all the transcriptions, haven’t we so.
Ashleigh: We do.
Flint: Wonderful transcription team who are so good and so hot on it.
Ashleigh: Yes, so on the case.
Alyx: Following on from that one, a story about another really cool person, a comic book artist named Jenny Blake Isabella, creator of DC’s Black Lightning, has recently announced that she is trans in a heartfelt post on her personal website. In the post, Isabella reflected on her first hair appointment and stated that the love and support from her fan base has been overwhelming and deeply appreciated and in a show of support from DC Comics, they’ve offered to update her credits for future reprints to reflect her name. And also she’s revealed she is now planning a comic series featuring a trans superhero, which we’ll be looking forward to hearing and hopefully reading more about. Yay.
Flint: Yeah. Fuck yeah. Love that, that’s so good.
Ashleigh: Yeah, you love to see it, don’t you?
Flint: Really. And also like how nice to have that offer to reprint because like, yeah, that’s one of the things that always kind of bugged me whenever I rewatched the Matrix is that it won’t have them gendered correctly or it will have their deadnames in.
Alyx: Yeah, like if you’re on streaming, they they should make the changes anyway because you know it’s stored on the server. They can just re edit and pop the right names in.
Flint: They do it enough times. If there’s some queer representation that they don’t like.
Ashleigh: Oh, topical.
Alyx: I suppose when we reflect back on it, it will be some great representation when we see that comic series.
Ashleigh: Yeah, looking forward to that. All right, so.
Alyx: Speaking of some more trans literature.
Flint: So I had the absolute honour of speaking to Dee Whitnall last week about their new book coming out, which is Beyond Bananas and Condoms: the Inclusive Sex Education that You Never Got in School. Very cool. Obviously a fair few people here will probably know Dee because they are a content creator in their own right and they do a lot of work with Queer AF, including doing the three queer cheers which we’ve featured in a couple of times. So it kind of felt like this just works out naturally. You got a book coming out. Hey, come over and talk about it. And it was a really good and interesting time.
Flint: So here it is now, be-boing.
Ashleigh: Yeah, let’s play the tape.
Alyx: Interview interview interview.
[interview starts]Flint: For any of our listeners that do not already know you, please introduce yourself.
Dee: Hi, I’m Dee. My pronouns are they/them, I am a multi award-winning sex educator, content creator, journalist. I currently work as the audience development producer at Queer AF, which I know What the Trans knows all about. Yep. I am also an author, which is why we’re talking today, so I’m the author of Beyond Bananas and Condoms: the LGBTQ+ Inclusive Sex Education Book You Never Got at School. I could go on about my many labels, but I will keep it short and sweet there.
Flint: So I mean the main reason that we have you here for this interview, right, is obviously the book and you’ve already mentioned that it’s the sex education that you never got at school. Tell us more about that. What kind of stuff is sort of really in it and going through it?
Dee: Basically, Beyond Bananas and Condoms is for everyone really, it’s for people that have a good understanding of sex ed, for people who received no sex education at school. It’s for trans people, queer people, and cis people, and straight people. I’m just providing insight into kind of every topic within sex education. My background is a qualified sex educator. I’ve been delivering sex ed for several years now, so it kind of goes through exactly what the curriculum should be, but isn’t. Making sure that at every point I talk about how sex education intersects with queer and trans people. So I talk about things like consent. So safer sex practices, gender identity, online safety, which is a huge thing at the moment. Basically that.
Flint: Just all of it, the whole thing. So obviously as you’ve mentioned, you’ve done a lot of work to queer sex education online, and I’m curious what made you want to take this product into a book form versus doing videos or other areas that we’ve seen you in more frequently?
Dee: Yeah, so originally the reason I decided to write Beyond Bananas and Condoms was because when I was going into schools and teaching sex education, I was teaching resources that didn’t reflect me. And I kind of felt like I was lying to students because I was saying things like, oh, women have periods. And there I stood, there was a non-binary person and was like, but I’m non-binary and I do. So I was fed up basically and I wanted to create a resource for a variety of audiences so that they could access sex education at different levels, not only for people who are queer and trans, but people who have queer and trans kids, who work with queer and trans people, because they’re the people that are the first port of call when it comes to educating our young people. And if they don’t know how to be inclusive, then God knows how the young people are going to know. So I decided to write it instead of do a video series or a podcast. It also was created because I had just finished my Master’s degree on gender and sexuality, and I did a whole dissertation on the history of trans inclusive sex education within the UK and how shocking it was. And I realised that there was so much to talk about in so many areas that I wanted to fill and wanted expand and wanted to just rewrite so I realised that it would take much longer and it needed a dedicated space and I wanted to make sure that people were able to kind of have this book on them as well, whether it’s in their bedroom or on them as a resource when they’re going to teach. To kind of always have that at hand, need be, and also I wanted to make it more inclusive and accessible, because not everybody enjoys being online considering all of the headlines, all of the news, all of the meta bans and flags that are happening. So I wanted to create something that people could have without censorship. And would be able to filter through and take it at their own pace as well in the comfort of their own home.
Flint: That makes a lot of sense. Out of interest, what’s one of the most sort of surprising things that you’ve learnt during the process of writing the book? Like, what’s one of the factoids that you went, Oh my God.
Dee: Trying to think now at the top of my head. Of course, all of my favourite myths, that I love to debunk are trans related that you know non-binary is something that Gen Z created, which I laugh at and I find so hilarious. When in fact it can be traced back to 2000 BCE and we’ve known of non-binary and trans identities throughout many cultures throughout, as long as time beyond Western society. But a lot of the myths that really kind of stuck with me were the myths about sex that I thought growing up, for example, somebody can break their fingers if they are pleasuring you and you sneeze, things like that, that are topics that I grew up thinking or that you’ll go into a bush and find a porn magazine. And things like that were were really fun myths to debunk, but also myths to kind of explore where they came from and actually the facts behind them, particularly when it comes to porn and safer sex and contraception methods, they were the ones that I giggled out when I was writing, like blue waffle for example, we’ve all heard it come across it. But I love being like, let’s talk about blue waffle and what it actually is.
Dee: And it is quite nice to kind of look at my younger self and be like, don’t worry, you don’t have to fear these things. Let’s talk about them.
Flint: What would you say this book can offer for like the more mature listener who might feel that whilst it’s great that like Beyond Bananas exist, they may not have a use for it now being like a fully grown adult with a sex life and everything.
Dee: I’d say that you are always learning, even as a sex educator. Even as “expert” in this space. And I’ve said this many times, but I’m always learning on the job. We’re always learning new things when it comes to sex and how to navigate it, how to be safe online, how to, you know, navigate healthy relationships. They are topics that continue with you throughout your whole life. You don’t learn consent one day and then every situation, you know exactly what to do. There will be different circumstances that arise. There will be different places that you’re in in your life where you may need to look back at your information, your knowledge and question it. And particularly for people who are cisgender and straight, questioning their sex education and why it wasn’t clear, and reading about queer experiences actually helps you to understand your own experiences better, and also means that you’re better prepared to support young people in your life.
And that’s an audience that I’ve been really focused on recently is parents who are straight and cis who want to talk about sex education to their young people but don’t know how to, because they only see it through their lens. So even if you think you know your sex education, I think it’s so important to understand other people’s experiences around sex education, but also. We’re changing now, we’ve got AI impact in the porn industry. There are so many things that are evolving within sex education, also laws and regulations around sex, identity, all of those juicy and terrible things that are happening in America right now and in the UK in regards to trans people. So I think sex education is always growing. And one point I say in the book is that I don’t want this to be your only resource. I want you to go out and look for other resources and if you don’t see yourself in a resource create it, write it yourself, because that’s why I wrote it. I didn’t see myself. And there were no resources out there that reflected my unique experience. So I created a book that hopefully will touch as many people as possible, but if there are moments where you think, what about me? What about my experience? I so push people to create their own because you won’t be the only person experiencing that and it’s so important to get your voice out there as well. So, I’m very much, this isn’t the one stop book. I want everyone to kind of use it as a jump pad and a place that they can go back to and refer to, but also reach out and find their own resources that suit them best as well.
Flint: Yeah. That’s brilliant. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. The kind of difference in knowledge that I feel like you get opened up to. When you start as a trans person, as a queer person, when you start realising that and living in accordance with that, you often realise that you may think that you know everything, when you consider yourself as cishet. But then the second that you go outside that, well there’s whole worlds, whole magnitudes that I had no idea on, I guess.
On the point of transness, specifically us being a trans podcast. What do you feel? And this isn’t necessarily book related, but what do you feel is one of the most pressing issues regarding trans sexual education in health that doesn’t get spoken about?
Dee: Yeah. Talking about one topic that I did mention quite a bit in the book that was heavily inspired by my trans partner was the second puberty that trans people experience, and how so many people don’t explore that. I think when we learn about puberty growing up, we’re told, oh, you’re going to feel uncomfortable in your body. You’re not going to like yourself, you’re going to smell, you’re going to grow new hair. You’re not going to feel comfortable, but no one tells you that that might continue on in life and that that actually may be a sign of you questioning your gender, questioning your body, questioning what makes you feel comfortable in yourself. We kind of tell young people, oh, it’ll get better one day. And then trans and queer people are sat there going, No, it still isn’t better. So what do I do? And one thing that I really loved exploring was the trans second puberty and kind of what it means to be a trans young person and how you can navigate your transness pre-medical transition but also post-medical transition which is a topic in schools that from my experience of teaching in schools, is not in schools at all. They will not touch that particularly right now.
So being able to talk about that experience allows me also to kind of heal those kind of memories of myself questioning my general identity and not knowing what it meant and just being told. Oh, it’s puberty. You don’t like your chest because it’s growing? Not because I don’t like my chest at all. And not knowing, yeah, but I can bind. There are days to navigate these feelings of dysphoria. I don’t have to just deal with it. And that’s something that I wish was spoken more about in the curriculum, in schools. But of course, if it was, they would say that it was us pushing the agenda of being trans, when in reality you can’t make people trans. You can teach them and give them the tools to understand it, and if it clicks, it clicks and that’s great. That’s definitely a part of sex education that I personally missed out on. And I know so many other trans people missed out on and unfortunately our young people are still missing out on because of censorship when it comes to trans identities in schools, which is getting worse, to be honest.
Flint: It’s wild to think that it’s getting worse, but like we didn’t have the same level of literal government guidance towards censorship than, like I was at school post Section 28. But in that weird period where they still didn’t fucking change anything, they didn’t say anything different. They didn’t start, they just were allowed to if they wanted to. So the first time I ever learnt about trans people in an educational setting outside of, say, movies that you see and what not, where you know you’re in an entertainment media landscape, the first time I learnt about trans people in an educational sense was psychology A level where we covered David Reimer.
Dee: Yep, I did that. I was Psychology A Level.
Flint: Yeah. And what a way to first have a conception of what trans people are.
Dee: When I was in that class and learning about that and it sits with me, I remember telling my boyfriend recently because he didn’t know about it. And when I told him he was shocked and I was like, I was told this at school during a period of my time where I didn’t know who I was and what I was.
And I remember my teacher just being so like, yeah, here’s this study about this really awful situation about this, really, like awful scenario, and by the way, it doesn’t end happily either. Enjoy! And that was it. And that’s all I got for trans people. And, you know, I am grateful that when I do go into schools now, particularly during LGBTQ+ History Month, I am being brought into schools to talk about my trans experience.
But there is still this level of they have to wait until a certain age, and there’s definitely not enough of trans joy in schools and in stories. And I’m so glad we had that same experience because that’s just brought back so many memories of that A level course. Oh my God.
Flint: It’s something that I only realised literally a couple of days ago when I was having a conversation with my dad about trans stuff in general, and I was like actually I’ve just read, do you want to know the first time I heard about a trans person? And he went, Oh my God.
Dee: My heart for that. That experience. I’d be interested to know how they teach it now and kind of the people in the class and how they react, because there would be such a difference.
Because, from going into schools, young people know so much more than teachers. They are the teachers in the room when they are trans and queer, so I would love to see their how, how they teach it now and how young people respond to it. Because I know in my class no one really, we just kind of continued on, because we didn’t really know what to say. But I feel like now young people would be like, hey, hang on, there’s a lot to unpack here. Let’s talk about this.
Flint: Yeah. Like I feel like I was quite lucky in the fact that my teacher basically, she very clearly had a lot of sympathy. And you could kind of, it was one of the few times I remember her getting a little bit kind of like this is going to be a tough one to talk about and I might get a little bit of a waver in my voice. But it’s because this is real. I remember it being taught to us, with the sort of take away conclusion that gender is not solely a societal construct. There is some inner compass that lets you know who you are and where you stand. But I feel like again, I really lucked out on having a very compassionate teacher that cared a lot about how we frame people and how we frame patients and illness. And I think that that’s likely not going to be standard. And oh, for any listeners who do not know.
Flint: Maybe be careful when Googling David Reimer as it’s a very sad story, but functionally what happened is a child was born and following, I believe a mishap with some surgery as a baby, a psychologist who was doing a lot of work into how societally constructed gender is, decided that it would be best to advise the parents to raise the child as a girl, despite being born assigned male at birth because if gender is societal then they won’t know the difference and, surprise, surprise, he did know the difference, and he eventually spent his whole life trying to get back to, well, going through a trans experience, but in a very particularly different kind of way and setting from us. Speaking of transness and trans kids, you’ve mentioned you’re the founder of Trans Kids Deserve to Grow Up. So obviously, you’ve been at protest, but I really wanted to ask you because you were part of the first ever all trans panel in Parliament and I’m really curious what that experience was like.
Dee: I was terrified. If I’m honest to be a trans person in Parliament, I’m making the joke of being of saying to my partner, I wonder if I’m the first person to wear a binder in this room, and that was a really fun thing and I was like, oh, that might be fun to know.
It was definitely heavy. I remember us going in and we obviously all had our speeches ready. My speech was primarily talking about Corey Hall, the young trans individual that we lost, sadly, oh, a few years back now. Because of bullying and discrimination, and I’m really close with Corey Hall’s family and they allowed me to talk about him in Parliament and I’ve met his family. Absolutely amazing family, love them so much. So I was able to share some of his moments and just humanise him to this, to this room because they had heard his name and they’d heard his story, but they didn’t know things like oh, he loved Doctor Who. He loved giraffes, the colour yellow, and I just wanted to remind people that we’re talking about kids here. We’re talking about young people. This phrase of you know, throwing trans on them then puts certain ideas into politicians’ and individuals’ minds. But they are young people. And it was really moving. Everybody who attended, they delivered these amazing speeches, and I did cry several times because they were so emotive and the room was dead quiet. Everyone was listening and the questions that followed, people, the politicians generally really did want to hear, you know what we want from them, and that was something I didn’t expect. I didn’t expect them to say we need more of these stories. We need you to tell us directly what impact we’re having and you’re seeing that now with Trans Kids Deserve Better and their protests, you’re seeing them tell politicians directly and unapologetically, This is what I want. And I think that is such a jump from where we were a few years back and it’s amazing to see from when I started my campaign to now Trans Kids Deserve Better and what they’re doing outside Wes Streeting’s office. Yes, I’m so happy that they’re being so vocal, because that’s what the politicians told us to our faces that they want to know the stories of these people because they only really read the name, the age that they died, why they died, they don’t know their experiences. Yeah, it was a very moving and moving session, and I remember leaving it feeling very hopeful, which now when I look back brings me some sort of, some feelings of OK, why didn’t you listen then? And why are we still here? And why are we still talking? Because everyone in that room was emotive, everybody had such feeling. The night felt so amazing, and now I look back and I’m like, where are those people? Where is that feeling of solidarity and of, we have to do something. Where is that now? Where has that vanished? Because these people are still in Parliament. In different positions, maybe, but they’re still there. So why aren’t we seeing them being more vocal now? But that’s something we could unpack for hours.
Flint: It does feel like at this point when trans people get in front of people in an official capacity, it seems like, it tends to lead more towards them being able to say they’ve checked the box of saying they’ve spoken to us sometimes. And it’s like that makes it really difficult to then want to sit down in a room and continue that conversation. Looking back at what’s changed like since the start of Trans Kids Deserve to Grow Up, as you mentioned, things generally in the landscape have kind of gotten worse. I’m really curious on what your perspective is and how, or what do you see is important for getting us through these particularly scary and yet scarily not unprecedented times.
Dee: In my heart, I just want to centre trans young people’s voices and putting them front of centre when it’s safe to do so and if it’s not safe to do so, being a vessel for them to be able to share their stories because, as I said, sharing stories is so important and it humanises us, it moves us beyond labels and shows people that we are just people and that we’re not these scary ideas of what trans kids have been projected to be. So ensuring that their voices are heard and putting their voices forward is so important, but I also respect that it’s so tiring to have to keep explaining who you are and sharing your story, and it’s not safe for many young people to do that. Again, that’s why I enjoy my campaign and being able to be that vessel, to speak up for individuals like Corey Hall and his family, being able to kind of take the brunt of the hate because I don’t mind that as a trans adult. And going on to being a trans adult, it’s so important that trans adults stand up for their trans young people and that they share their stories and share how they went from a young person who was confused and questioning to a trans adult and how that journey took place and really just telling it straight. And highlighting the fact that it isn’t as easy as everybody thinks it is, it’s not as cheap as everybody thinks it is. You don’t go to a GP, and get told, oh, you’re trans. Well done. Go and get your surgery now. And just rationalising it and making people realise the reality of it. Because when people don’t understand something, that’s when they start to elaborate and make it fantastical. But the reality is, it’s like people like me and my partner. We can’t afford top surgery, and we’re adults, you know, like it’s a process. It’s not something that comes easy.
Another element that comes into that is community. Recently I’ve experienced personally so much in-fighting from the trans community ever since I came out as non-binary and then started using the trans label as well. I faced a lot of inviting and right now we don’t need in-fighting and we don’t have time for it. We need to stand together because as many have said, once they attack one part of our community, it’s a trickle-down effect and they will attack other members of the community and we’re seeing that happen in America, we’re seeing that happening in the UK once they come for the T and the Q, they’re going to come for the LGB. That’s just something that will happen. So it’s so important that if you are gay, if you are bi, if you are a lesbian, that you do stand up for your trans young people and trans people in general and non-binary people, and you fight for their rights and you share their stories because obviously when you look through every kind of identity, there is levels of privilege, depending on who you are, where you come from, your background. Various other elements, so using your privilege is so important as a queer person to uplift members of the community that are marginalised, who can’t share their stories, who can’t share their stories because they’re not here anymore, because they don’t feel safe to, because they’re just not able to. That’s kind of like a bigger, a kind of a round-up of what we can do as a community. I always want to make sure that I include cis and straight people in the conversation. It’s about educating yourself and talking with trans people and realising that we’re just people and being able to kind of challenge your own beliefs and also challenge any kind of click-baity headlines and articles that you see because most of the time they’re not real. So if you see something and you’re like, Oh my God, this is so wild and fantastical, maybe take a step back and consider who wrote it.
Where’s the proof? What’s the context? And then it might start to unravel, and that’s something that I’m really keen on sharing recently since we’ve seen an influx of people saying people are identifying as cats in schools, now they’re putting litter boxes everywhere and it’s like no. Not true.
Flint: That’s not true. And also in reality, the reason why there’s a device that’s similar enough like that in a school is because of a horrific problem with gun violence. So if you want no litter boxes in your schools, pass some gun control. I think there’s also a lot in the way in how cis people listen to us, that’s also a thing. I think a lot of times, cis people will, even if they’re genuinely wanting to listen and learn and understand, they’ll kind of be approaching it from a conversation as if, I know a little bit less. But I have opinions. And we’re having a conversation as equals. And I think that there is a lot, there is a lot of reward to be gotten from recognising that you are not an expert and that the person before you has a lived experience. That means that you aren’t equals in this scenario actually. You’re in a position of learning from someone who has gone through a lot more and who you should maybe defer a little bit to in this particular area depending upon what and how, right. That’s the kind of that’s the way that I at least like to try and show up when someone’s speaking to me about a life experience that I know I have nothing, no connection to. I’m going to respect the fact that they’re the expert. But yeah, it’s been wonderful and lovely chatting to you. I’ve got no more questions. If there’s any kind of questions you have or any kind of discussion points that you want to bring up. Oh, there’s this cool thing, then feel free. Any kind of plugs you want to make.
Dee: I will go straight into the plugs then. So if you would like to hear more about my campaign Trans Kids Deserve to Grow Up, you can find it on Instagram at Trans Kids Deserve to Grow Up and also hashtag Trans Kids Deserve to Grow Up. I am going to be relaunching my photo campaign where I share pictures of trans adults as babies and they share a lovely statement. So if you have any, please do send them my way. I would love to share your stories and share your lovely young people photos. If you’d like to learn more about gender and sex and identity, and also trans news as well, you can head over to my work Instagram, which is at S3x Theory with Dee. The E in Sex is a Three because Meta hates anything to do with sex and queerness, so. Yep. And then you can check out my book Beyond Bananas and Condoms, which by the time this plot is out, will probably be published on the 21st of Feb or you can pre-order it. Either way, it will be somewhere for you to get it, and I have a few launches happening in London and in Brighton, but as a socially anxious person that I am, you don’t have to come along to that. It’s fine.
Flint: I think I met you at London Trans Pride briefly. When I was, when I was taking photos of I all, all of the signs that I could, because that’s we were doing as What the Trans, I remember at one point briefly bumping into I think you and Jamie, Queer AF people and being like oh, trans history week alumni, and then like bye!
Dee: Yeah, I think I think you actually took the picture that we’ve been using for our Crowdfunder. It’s me and Jamie, right?
Flint: Oh possibly. I think so! Yeah.
Dee: Yeah, I love that photo. It’s really lovely actually. I love What the Trans, I’ve been, you know, working with you since you kind of were born. And since I started my campaign as well. I love the journalism that you do as well and the fact that you don’t give a shit.
Flint: Yeah, someone’s got to not.
Dee: Right. We need trans people who are loud. And don’t give a shit.
Flint: Yeah, loud and disruptive.
Ashleigh: So that was good. Nice conversation well done.
Flint: Thank you. I mean, I was only half of it, so you know, but the. The thing that got really interesting, we both ended up start. It’s the moment when we’re talking about David Reimer. Obviously, as I mentioned in the interview, David Reimer was the first time that I had been taught in school of someone having what could be considered to be a transgender experience. And. You know there’s a lot in that that I think is to be explored. There’s a lot in the way that David Reimer was treated that I feel some kind of recognition and sympathy with including the fact of like, you know the level of pathologisation that he had in his life, which is so much, and also the fact of like the what was done to him as such a young child, is something that a lot of intersex people go through. Still to this day.
So it was it was kind of a random veer off left course, but like it’s a topic that I really want to think more on and consider more, maybe do a do some kind of retrospective re-look at, re-examining of that and also the way in which we are taught about his life. But yeah, on the book, I’m really, really excited for this book. We found out literally today on day of recording. It’s currently #2 on the Amazon best sellers list I think for the topic of transgender people.
Ashleigh: Nice.
Alyx: It was for bestsellers, for under transgender sex.
Flint: So amazing. So we love to see that. And this is great. And this is something that me and many of my friends have often lamented at the way in which, you know, the best sex education that you were likely to get in school is when it was kind of funny, because if it wasn’t kind of funny, it was going to be excruciatingly awkward, if not deeply uncomfortable.
This feels like the world has been set slightly ever so slightly more into a good kind of balance and yeah, excited for what they do next.
Alyx: Yeah. So it’s great to hear from Dee and always great to have them on the pod.
Ashleigh: Yeah, lovely to hear from them. And speaking of things that are lovely, yes. Let’s do some trans joy [sound effects] . All right. So on trans day of visibility at the end of March, there is to be a reading at Quill in Sunny Scotland, in fact in Edinburgh, on Leith Walk in Edinburgh you just need to sign up for it over Eventbrite. It’s £6, good value. It’s described as a cosy evening of powerful readings celebrating Trans Day of Visibility, which sounds pretty awesome. That’s at Argonaut Books in Edinburgh. So yeah, check it out if you can.
Alyx: Also to check out, there’s a crowdfunder for a trans sci-fi short film that Tilly Bridges has co-wrote and co-directed. She’s really excited about it. It’s a story about love and hope and connection, and it’s a story that we need more of now than ever. So check that out if you want to support some great films like that, because it’s always great to have some trans sci-fi films. That’s something that’d be really cool.
Ashleigh: And if you’ve got something that is joyful that brings you something good in your life, something you’re looking forward to, something you’ve achieved, something you’re about to start. Anything that sparks joy. Let us know and we will read out your contribution here on the showdy. That’s. That’s it. Thank you all. Thanks for listening. Obviously you can find us at whatthetrans.com. That’s where all of our stuff goes as we’ve said, there’s those two really good articles that we’ve had out just this week. Obviously you can find us on BlueSky. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram, although for how much longer, I do not know. And if you feel like this inane rambling is the sort of thing you can financially support, then please do head on over to our Patreon. And finally, we are at 101 subscribers. Oh yeah. Victory noises [sound effects]
Thanks for listening and we’ll be back in two weeks.
[outro music]Ashleigh: This episode of What The Trans was written and produced by Ashleigh Talbot, Alyx Bedwel and Flint, was edited by Amber Roberts and Amber Devereux, and with music composed by Waritsara Yui Karlberg, with our episode thumbnail by Uppoa Piers, and transcription performed by Sam Wyman, Rowan B, Rachel Aldred, Georgia Griffiths and Becky. And we would especially like to thank our producer-level Patreons. Who are:
Ashleigh, Alyx & Flint: Becky Cheatle, Mx Spectrum, Jordan Star, Lee Downs, Lindsay Cannon, George Simmons, Carly Silvers, B2, Smiley, friend of Candy from across the pond, The Socialist Party of Great Britain (1904), Sarah, Erris, Tim Rufo, Maestrum, Lex Phoenix, Sebastian Sings Soprano, Joe the enby is working on their self depreciation (good on ya, Joe), Andrea Brooks, Jack Edwards, Stefan Blakemore, [unclear], needles and threads, Flaming Dathne, Dr McGee, Gen, Janeway, Katie Reynolds, Georgia Holden Burnett, Grabilicious, Mx Aphen, Rootminusone, Grey, Elisabeth Anderson, Bernice Roust, Ellen Mellor, Jay Hoskins, Trowan, Ashley, Setcab, Jane, Roberto de Prunk, Rose Absolute, Sarah, Sinna, Kiki T, Dee, Skye Kilaen, Eric Widman, Bee, Jude, [French accordion] monsieur squirrel, Fergus Evans, anubisajackal, Brandon Craig, braykthasistim, Sian Phillips, Heidi Rearden, Lentil, clara vulliamy, Amelia, Samantha Raven, [bring the thunder] Ravenheart bringer of the heavy metal, Fiona Macdonell, Murgatroid, ontologicallyunjust, Stella, Cyndergosa, Rebecca Prentice, [reverb] Crazzee Richard, danoblivion, Florence Stanley, Helen_, Elle Hollingsworth, Melody Nix, Fiona Punchard, John, CB Bailey, Gordon Cameron, Ted Delphos, Kai Luren, Vic Parsons, Patreon User, Vic Kelly, Katherine, Sabrina McVeigh, Cassius Adair, Melissa Brooks, Karaken12, April Heller, Sofie Lewis, Alexandra Lilly, Claire Scott, Ariadne Pena, Lauren O’Nions, Bernard’s Pink Jellybean. And Lenos.
